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Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 22nd 20, 12:47 PM posted to alt.astronomy
Porcospino
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Posts: 7
Default Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !

On 2020-06-22, Whisper wrote:
On 19/06/2020 11:33 pm, Porcospino wrote:
On 2020-06-18, Whisper wrote:

Exactly. Humans aren't equipped for extensive space travel, wouldn't
survive long anyway. That's just sci-fi cartoon stuff.


Humans aren't equipped for diving to the bottom of the ocean, flying in
the stratosphere or walking on the Moon either. Alas, the time when we
were limited to a specific environment and couldn't break out of it is
long past.


You're comparing that to intergalactic travel? Rofl.


Interstellar, not intergalactic. The fact that you treat them as if they
were interchangeable says a lot.

Interstellar travel should be technically feasible for a civilization
with a developed presence in its own system (low-cost launches due to
economies of scale, industrial activities such as asteroid mining,
settlements on more than one planet, solar power satellites, etc.. As
in, there are technical designs for interstellar propulsion that we know
to be realistic for a civilization with that kind of energy and resource
availability.

I don't think the fact that we haven't gone beyond the Moon in fifty
years is significant, because technological development (and economic
growth) of this kind won't happen within decades.
  #12  
Old June 22nd 20, 01:22 PM posted to alt.astronomy
Whisper[_3_]
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Posts: 62
Default Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !

On 22/06/2020 9:47 pm, Porcospino wrote:
On 2020-06-22, Whisper wrote:
On 19/06/2020 11:33 pm, Porcospino wrote:
On 2020-06-18, Whisper wrote:

Exactly. Humans aren't equipped for extensive space travel, wouldn't
survive long anyway. That's just sci-fi cartoon stuff.


Humans aren't equipped for diving to the bottom of the ocean, flying in
the stratosphere or walking on the Moon either. Alas, the time when we
were limited to a specific environment and couldn't break out of it is
long past.


You're comparing that to intergalactic travel? Rofl.


Interstellar, not intergalactic. The fact that you treat them as if they
were interchangeable says a lot.


Both impossible. Voyager would take 73,000 yrs to get to nearest star.
Jesus was alive only 2,000 yrs ago for some perspective. You'd need
1,000 generations to make 1 way trip if average life span is 73 yrs.
That's impossible.



Interstellar travel should be technically feasible for a civilization
with a developed presence in its own system (low-cost launches due to
economies of scale, industrial activities such as asteroid mining,
settlements on more than one planet, solar power satellites, etc.. As
in, there are technical designs for interstellar propulsion that we know
to be realistic for a civilization with that kind of energy and resource
availability.



You're a complete nutter lol. Just typing words into a keyboard doesn't
make it feasible. Why should interstellar travel be 'technically
feasible' for a civilization? It's actually 100% impossible. You've
been watching too much Star Trek.



I don't think the fact that we haven't gone beyond the Moon in fifty
years is significant, because technological development (and economic
growth) of this kind won't happen within decades.



It will never happen. 100% money back guarantee. Sorry to burst you
bubble but you need to grow up sometime.


  #13  
Old June 22nd 20, 01:50 PM posted to alt.astronomy
[email protected]
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Posts: 537
Default Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !


=20
=20=20I=20don't=20think=20the=20fact=20that=20we =20haven't=20gon=

e=20beyond=20the=20Moon=20in=20fifty
=20=20years=20is=20significant,=20because=20tech nological=20deve=

lopment=20(and=20economic
=20=20growth)=20of=20this=20kind=20won't=20happe n=20within=20dec=

ades.
=20


=20It=20will=20never=20happen.=20=20100%=20money= 20back=20guarant=

ee.=20=20Sorry=20to=20burst=20you
=20bubble=20but=20you=20need=20to=20grow=20up=20s ometime.


It=20obviously=20most=20certainly=20will=20happen= 20eventually.


  #15  
Old June 22nd 20, 05:59 PM posted to alt.astronomy
Daniel[_14_]
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Posts: 6
Default Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !

Porcospino writes:

On 2020-06-22, Whisper wrote:
On 19/06/2020 11:33 pm, Porcospino wrote:
On 2020-06-18, Whisper wrote:

Exactly. Humans aren't equipped for extensive space travel, wouldn't
survive long anyway. That's just sci-fi cartoon stuff.


Humans aren't equipped for diving to the bottom of the ocean, flying in
the stratosphere or walking on the Moon either. Alas, the time when we
were limited to a specific environment and couldn't break out of it is
long past.


You're comparing that to intergalactic travel? Rofl.


Interstellar, not intergalactic. The fact that you treat them as if they
were interchangeable says a lot.

Interstellar travel should be technically feasible for a civilization
with a developed presence in its own system (low-cost launches due to
economies of scale, industrial activities such as asteroid mining,
settlements on more than one planet, solar power satellites, etc.. As
in, there are technical designs for interstellar propulsion that we know
to be realistic for a civilization with that kind of energy and resource
availability.

I don't think the fact that we haven't gone beyond the Moon in fifty
years is significant, because technological development (and economic
growth) of this kind won't happen within decades.


We have SpaceX.

--
Daniel

Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world
  #16  
Old June 22nd 20, 09:22 PM posted to alt.astronomy
Porcospino
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !

On 2020-06-22, Whisper wrote:
Interstellar, not intergalactic. The fact that you treat them as if they
were interchangeable says a lot.


Both impossible. Voyager would take 73,000 yrs to get to nearest star.
Jesus was alive only 2,000 yrs ago for some perspective. You'd need
1,000 generations to make 1 way trip if average life span is 73 yrs.
That's impossible.


Voyager is a terrible example because you're assuming that that peak of
possible propulsion technology was reached in the 1970s (which is a
ridiculous assumption). There have been papers detailing the engineering
requirements for decades-long trips to the nearest stars for a while
now, for example using laser-pushed light sails.

They are unfeasible from the point of view of present human society's
energy availability (but that should keep growing unless we go extinct
very soon or we abandon all our spacefaring ambitions) but there should
be no engineering showstopper, much less a physics breakthrough
required.

http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studi...rt/4Landis.pdf

This study details a fly-by of Alpha Centauri lasting 44 years, but
there are plenty similar ones with shorter travel times depending on the
assumed sail diameter and energy output of the lasers.
And this is just one propulsion system among others that have been
studied.

Will this happen today or within this century, then? Should we try to
build this now? No, but only because a developed space presence is
required, and that will take decades or centuries to build up.

The main obstacle probably isn't even travel time itself.


I don't think the fact that we haven't gone beyond the Moon in fifty
years is significant, because technological development (and economic
growth) of this kind won't happen within decades.



It will never happen. 100% money back guarantee. Sorry to burst you
bubble but you need to grow up sometime.



"Never" is an awfully long time to bet something on.
  #17  
Old June 23rd 20, 03:22 PM posted to alt.astronomy
Luigi Caselli[_2_]
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Posts: 24
Default Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !

Il 22/06/2020 18:59, Daniel ha scritto:


We have SpaceX.


Really a terrific progress going from Saturn V to SpaceX in fifty years.
At this pace an unlucky crew will be on Mars by the year 9000 without
any possibility to come back to Earth...

Luigi Caselli
  #18  
Old June 23rd 20, 05:01 PM posted to alt.astronomy
Luigi Caselli[_2_]
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Posts: 24
Default Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !

Il 22/06/2020 22:22, Porcospino ha scritto:
On 2020-06-22, Whisper wrote:
Voyager is a terrible example because you're assuming that that peak of
possible propulsion technology was reached in the 1970s (which is a
ridiculous assumption). There have been papers detailing the engineering
requirements for decades-long trips to the nearest stars for a while
now, for example using laser-pushed light sails.

They are unfeasible from the point of view of present human society's
energy availability (but that should keep growing unless we go extinct
very soon or we abandon all our spacefaring ambitions) but there should
be no engineering showstopper, much less a physics breakthrough
required.

http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studi...rt/4Landis.pdf

This study details a fly-by of Alpha Centauri lasting 44 years, but
there are plenty similar ones with shorter travel times depending on the
assumed sail diameter and energy output of the lasers.
And this is just one propulsion system among others that have been
studied.


Something newer?
The document was written in 1999 and after 20 years we haven't had no
progress at all about propulsion systems.
We use the same rockets, only smaller, of mission Apollo.
Maybe I have to wait 10000 years to take my laser-pushed light sail and
go on some exoplanet on vacation...

Luigi Caselli
  #19  
Old June 23rd 20, 07:08 PM posted to alt.astronomy
Porcospino
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !

On 2020-06-23, Luigi Caselli wrote:

Something newer?
The document was written in 1999 and after 20 years we haven't had no
progress at all about propulsion systems.


There are newer documents on the same concept. Some improvements have
been made when it comes to materials (since the sail would need to be
very light, have good reflective properties, and be incredibly thin).
You can search some of them he https://ntrs.nasa.gov/
For example, this one from this year discusses options for interstellar
propulsion in general and mentions workshops on the topic:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...0200000759.pdf
This one is a more technical paper tackling part of the topic:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/c...0100036571.pdf

There is 'Breakthrough Starshot' which is a very limited
(proof-of-concept) private initiative for nanoprobes capable of reaching
Alpha Centauri using laser sails. I doubt they will go too far, but they
got some funding and media exposure (googling it brings up plenty of
results).

They are all _conceptual studies_, of course, because at present the
energy requirements are too burdensome for us (ie, even aside from
engineering challenges concerning nanomaterials or scaling up lasers,
building one or more space lasers with the required power, ability to
focus the beam at large distances, etc., would be impossibly expensive).
But for a civilization with a developed presence in its own system,
these requirements would be trivial.

I never implied that one of us would go on vacation to exoplanets any
time soon anyway: it was only meant to show that conceptually
interstellar travel should be feasible (within centuries, perhaps) and
isn't 'unscientific'. No violation of physics is required, and the
engineering issues are solvable given enough time. Travel between the
stars *can* happen, even if not for us right now.

We use the same rockets, only smaller, of mission Apollo.


I wouldn't be so pessimistic. The main reason why human spaceflight
programs have stagnated after Apollo has been that they were approached
in ways that were economically unsustainable (especially if you look at
some 1980s projects for Mars landings), along with some efficiency
issues within the aerospace industry that have kept launch costs high.
With high launch costs and expensive projects you're hardly going to get
anything beyond Earth orbit outside of one-off missions ("flags and
footprints").

Since it was mentioned, I think that SpaceX has made good progress
towards a sustainable space presence: both the Raptor engine and the
ability to return boosters to launch site are a step ahead compared to
what had been accomplished until now (and is influencing other
companies' choices too), and hopefully other stuff like in-orbit
refueling and the whole 'Starship' project will pave the way for more.
  #20  
Old June 24th 20, 04:04 PM posted to alt.astronomy
a425couple
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Posts: 216
Default Travel Among Stars Will Never Happen !

On 6/22/2020 1:22 PM, Porcospino wrote:
On 2020-06-22, Whisper wrote:
Interstellar, not intergalactic. The fact that you treat them as if they
were interchangeable says a lot.


Both impossible. Voyager would take 73,000 yrs to get to nearest star.
Jesus was alive only 2,000 yrs ago for some perspective. You'd need
1,000 generations to make 1 way trip if average life span is 73 yrs.
That's impossible.


Voyager is a terrible example because you're assuming that that peak of
possible propulsion technology was reached in the 1970s (which is a
ridiculous assumption). There have been papers detailing the engineering
requirements for decades-long trips to the nearest stars for a while
now, for example using laser-pushed light sails.

They are unfeasible from the point of view of present human society's
energy availability (but that should keep growing unless we go extinct
very soon or we abandon all our spacefaring ambitions) but there should
be no engineering showstopper, much less a physics breakthrough
required.

http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studi...rt/4Landis.pdf

This study details a fly-by of Alpha Centauri lasting 44 years, but
there are plenty similar ones with shorter travel times depending on the
assumed sail diameter and energy output of the lasers.
And this is just one propulsion system among others that have been
studied.

Will this happen today or within this century, then? Should we try to
build this now? No, but only because a developed space presence is
required, and that will take decades or centuries to build up.

Yes. "decades or centuries" where the civilized world
continues economic growth and scientific expansion.
That is not guaranteed, but is quite likely.

The main obstacle probably isn't even travel time itself.


I don't think the fact that we haven't gone beyond the Moon in fifty
years is significant, because technological development (and economic
growth) of this kind won't happen within decades.


It will never happen. 100% money back guarantee. Sorry to burst you
bubble but you need to grow up sometime.


"Never" is an awfully long time to bet something on.

I agree with that.

 




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