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Bacteria in spaeships



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 26th 18, 06:26 AM posted to sci.space.policy
William Elliot[_4_]
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Posts: 86
Default Bacteria in spaeships

What are we going to do about preventing Earth bacteria
from contamenating Mars biota when we set foot on Mars?

A microbiologist discovered that Acetinobacter can eat the
desinfectant that NASA sprays in their clean rooms...

A soil bacteria.

Now, NASA is selecting the hardest microbes to send to space... All
other normal microbes are dead, and Actetinobacter has no competition.

Arrived to destination (say Mars) Acetinobacter could be devasting for
a local biota. Since it is extremely resistant, it could spread
unchecked.

Is it a good idea to desinfect spaceships?

Or it would be better to have as much as possible of weak, normal
bacteria that are surely dead if confronted to space?

Or coat the spaceships with very fragile bacteria that would prevent
Acetinobacter to thrive and would be immediately dead in space?

What is important is that in space no earth bacteria survive
unchecked.

  #12  
Old June 26th 18, 08:33 AM posted to sci.space.policy
jacob navia
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Posts: 341
Default Bacteria in spaeships

Le 26/06/2018 à 03:04, Jeff Findley a écrit*:
I call bull****.

You're the one who used the word "thrive". These are*not* examples o bacteria thriving under something close to Mars conditions. These are
examples of them surviving exposure to vacuum, but they weren't growing,
weren't reproducing, and etc. They were essentially dormant.


Yes. I was answering to you saying:

quote
Not near vacuum. Try again.
end quote

OK, now that THAT objection is cleared you change the subject and admit
that bacteria can survive total vacuum.

They can also survive an hypervelocity impact, so even if the spacecraft
crashes and all humans are dead, their bacteria could survive.

But I see that with scientific arguments (published papers, etc) you get
nowhere in a newsgroup where anybody can say anything and when proved
wrong they just change the subject...

Plants have been grown using simulated marsian soil, not under vacuum
conditions but that proves that nutrients are present... Bacteria are
far more resistant than plants, and could develop after a probably long
adaptation period.
  #13  
Old June 26th 18, 08:37 AM posted to sci.space.policy
jacob navia
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Posts: 341
Default Bacteria in spaeships

Le 26/06/2018 Ã* 07:26, William Elliot a écritÂ*:
What are we going to do about preventing Earth bacteria
from contamenating Mars biota when we set foot on Mars?


There is NO WAY to desinfect a human. A human body is a full ecosystem
with fungi, bacteria, viruses, and many organisms that live in it using
the rests of skin, and secretions to feed themselves.

This means that if we send humans we contaminate the planet where we
send them. That is why I am against any Mars colonization until it is
100% sure that no organisms live there.

Much worst is the fact that humans RETURN to earth, contrary to machines
that stay there. If any marsian bugs exist, they could hitch a ride from
Mars to Earth with uncalculable consequences. Contamination, of course,
goes both ways!

  #14  
Old June 26th 18, 11:52 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 10,018
Default Bacteria in spaeships

William Elliot wrote on Mon, 25 Jun 2018 22:26:12
-0700:


What are we going to do about preventing Earth bacteria
from contamenating Mars biota when we set foot on Mars?


What 'Mars biota'? Do you seriously believe that bacteria evolved for
Earth conditions are going to out-compete stuff that evolved for the
conditions that exist on Mars?


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #16  
Old June 26th 18, 12:22 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
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Posts: 2,307
Default Bacteria in spaeships

In article ,
says...

Le 26/06/2018 à 03:04, Jeff Findley a écrit*:
I call bull****.

You're the one who used the word "thrive". These are*not* examples o bacteria thriving under something close to Mars conditions. These are
examples of them surviving exposure to vacuum, but they weren't growing,
weren't reproducing, and etc. They were essentially dormant.


Yes. I was answering to you saying:

quote
Not near vacuum. Try again.
end quote

OK, now that THAT objection is cleared you change the subject and admit
that bacteria can survive total vacuum.


Survive in a completely dormant state. Unless something close to earth
normal atmosphere, humidity, and etc. is eventually restored, all of
those examples will not survive in the long term. They will die out.

So, what's the problem with letting a few of them escape on the surface
of Mars where the ratified atmosphere and solar radiation will
eventually kill them?

They can also survive an hypervelocity impact, so even if the spacecraft
crashes and all humans are dead, their bacteria could survive.


Yes, only to eventually die due to lack of atmospheric pressure.

But I see that with scientific arguments (published papers, etc) you get
nowhere in a newsgroup where anybody can say anything and when proved
wrong they just change the subject...


The subject is "contaminating the Mars biota". There is little chance
we can actually accomplish that given the current conditions on the
surface of Mars.

Plants have been grown using simulated marsian soil, not under vacuum
conditions but that proves that nutrients are present... Bacteria are
far more resistant than plants, and could develop after a probably long
adaptation period.


So you also admit that no organism that we know of on earth can thrive
in the near vacuum on Mars? That's kind of the point here. It's hard
to contaminate Mars when everything you let outside goes completely
dormant, at best.

So, unless Mars is going to restore its own atmosphere sometime in the
future, I think we're fine with humans exploring the surface of Mars.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #17  
Old June 26th 18, 05:39 PM posted to sci.space.policy
jacob navia
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Posts: 341
Default Bacteria in spaeships

Le 26/06/2018 à 13:22, Jeff Findley a écrit*:
OK, now that THAT objection is cleared you change the subject and admit
that bacteria can survive total vacuum.

Survive in a completely dormant state. Unless something close to earth
normal atmosphere, humidity, and etc. is eventually restored, all of
those examples will not survive in the long term. They will die out.

So, what's the problem with letting a few of them escape on the surface
of Mars where the ratified atmosphere and solar radiation will
eventually kill them?


They have to get a few cm underground and there the radiation is far
less. If they sink to depths of 1 meter they are shielded from radiation.

As Mars exploration advances, we find water under the surface in great
quantities: full frozen lakes are just under a few meters of soil. In
the poles of Mars, NASA retrieved water by just drilling a few cm of soil.

Underground, the bacteria would find a very hospitable environment, with
water, no radiation, and probably a lot of nutrients to go by.

They can also survive an hypervelocity impact, so even if the spacecraft
crashes and all humans are dead, their bacteria could survive.

Yes, only to eventually die due to lack of atmospheric pressure.


They have to just get underground and they are OK.
  #18  
Old June 27th 18, 02:15 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
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Posts: 2,307
Default Bacteria in spaeships

In article ,
says...

Le 26/06/2018 à 13:22, Jeff Findley a écrit*:
OK, now that THAT objection is cleared you change the subject and admit
that bacteria can survive total vacuum.

Survive in a completely dormant state. Unless something close to earth
normal atmosphere, humidity, and etc. is eventually restored, all of
those examples will not survive in the long term. They will die out.

So, what's the problem with letting a few of them escape on the surface
of Mars where the ratified atmosphere and solar radiation will
eventually kill them?


They have to get a few cm underground and there the radiation is far
less. If they sink to depths of 1 meter they are shielded from radiation.

As Mars exploration advances, we find water under the surface in great
quantities: full frozen lakes are just under a few meters of soil. In
the poles of Mars, NASA retrieved water by just drilling a few cm of soil.


Possibly. Hard to tell how much, if any of it, is actually liquid.

Underground, the bacteria would find a very hospitable environment, with
water, no radiation, and probably a lot of nutrients to go by.


Possibly. Hard to tell until we get there and actually take core
samples.

They can also survive an hypervelocity impact, so even if the spacecraft
crashes and all humans are dead, their bacteria could survive.

Yes, only to eventually die due to lack of atmospheric pressure.


They have to just get underground and they are OK.


Possibly. It really depends on subsurface conditions that scientists
are only speculating about. Again, we need actual core samples that go
down many meters. We've not done that yet, even with uncrewed probes.
My preference would be to do this on crewed missions so that scientists,
on the spot, can examine at least a few of the core samples including
literally putting them under the microscope. This would be orders of
magnitude more efficient than uncrewed probes.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #19  
Old June 27th 18, 05:44 AM posted to sci.space.policy
William Elliot[_4_]
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Posts: 86
Default Bacteria in spaeships

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018, Jeff Findley wrote:
What are we going to do about preventing Earth bacteria
from contamenating Mars biota when we set foot on Mars?


You're assuming that there is an actual living Mars biota. This has
not been proven. There are signs that Mars may have had life in the
distant past, but we do not have any definitive evidence that proves
life exists on Mars today.


Isn't my assumption. It's NASA's.
  #20  
Old June 27th 18, 06:18 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 10,018
Default Bacteria in spaeships

William Elliot wrote on Tue, 26 Jun 2018 21:44:42
-0700:

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018, Jeff Findley wrote:
What are we going to do about preventing Earth bacteria
from contamenating Mars biota when we set foot on Mars?


You're assuming that there is an actual living Mars biota. This has
not been proven. There are signs that Mars may have had life in the
distant past, but we do not have any definitive evidence that proves
life exists on Mars today.


Isn't my assumption. It's NASA's.


Please cite this NASA assumption that there is an actual living Mars
biota. Note that spacecraft sterilization efforts do not demonstrate
such an assumption, since we did the same thing for lunar probes and
nobody thought there was an actual living biota there.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
 




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