Why is absolute zero finite compared to maximum heat (which is seemingly infinite)?

Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat? Why is there a lower bound for cold?

(Binary Object) wrote in message . com...
Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat? Why is there a lower bound for cold?

Perhaps you should find out how temperature is defined?

Absolute zero is when the average velocity of particles
is zero.

The highest possible temperature is when the average
velocity of particles approaches the speed of light.

Alternatively, you could turn the entire universe except
for one subatomic particle into energy, pour all that energy
into that particle, pretend that the notion of temperature is
still meaningful for a single particle, and work out a
maximum temperature from that.

Laura Halliday VE7LDH "Que les nuages soient notre
Grid: CN89mg pied a terre..."
ICBM: 49 16.05 N 122 56.92 W - Hospital/Shafte

Perhaps you should find out how temperature is defined?

Absolute zero is when the average velocity of particles
is zero.
Absolute zero is when the velocity of all particles is zero. The
average velocity of the particles that make me is zero relative to the
floor because I'm not moving Temperature is a measure of the
kinetic energy of a system of moving particles that has zero net
velocity...

The highest possible temperature is when the average
velocity of particles approaches the speed of light.
Temperature is a measure of energy not

The highest possible temperature is not limited by the speed of light-
it's limited by the amount of energy in the universe...because you can
always dump more energy into a moving particle even though it gets no
faster.

So I've always been puzzled that one of the limiting design parameters
of spacecraft is the amount of reaction mass avaliable-- since you can
make anything that has mass contain an infinite amount of energy one
electron accelerated fast enough and shot out of the talepipe should
bring you up to light speed regardless of the mass of your spacecraft.
Granted this approach has a few engineering problems...

Alternatively, you could turn the entire universe except
for one subatomic particle into energy, pour all that energy
into that particle, pretend that the notion of temperature is
still meaningful for a single particle, and work out a
maximum temperature from that.

Laura Halliday VE7LDH "Que les nuages soient notre
Grid: CN89mg pied a terre..."
ICBM: 49 16.05 N 122 56.92 W - Hospital/Shafte

"Henry Allen" wrote in message
om...

Perhaps you should find out how temperature is defined?

Absolute zero is when the average velocity of particles
is zero.
Absolute zero is when the velocity of all particles is zero.

Nope--there's a zero-point energy that isn't zero.

The
average velocity of the particles that make me is zero relative to the
floor because I'm not moving Temperature is a measure of the
kinetic energy of a system of moving particles that has zero net
velocity...

It's actually translational kinetic energy. Rotation and internal vibration
of molecules don't show up in the temperature. If you have a diatomic
molecular gas in thermal equilibrium with a monoatomic gas (and the
temperature is high enough to activate other than translational motion), the
diatomic species will have more energy per molecule.


The highest possible temperature is when the average
velocity of particles approaches the speed of light.
Temperature is a measure of energy not

The highest possible temperature is not limited by the speed of light-
it's limited by the amount of energy in the universe...because you can
always dump more energy into a moving particle even though it gets no
faster.

So I've always been puzzled that one of the limiting design parameters
of spacecraft is the amount of reaction mass avaliable-- since you can
make anything that has mass contain an infinite amount of energy one
electron accelerated fast enough and shot out of the talepipe should
bring you up to light speed regardless of the mass of your spacecraft.
Granted this approach has a few engineering problems...

You also need to factor in specific impulse.

Mark Folsom

In sci.physics
(Binary Object) wrote:

Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat? Why is there a lower bound for cold?

It is hard to get slower than completely stopped

Binary Object wrote:

Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat? Why is there a lower bound for cold?

Temperature is a measure of the kinetic energy per molecule. Molecules
can only lose so much translatory (kinetic) energy until they have none
left to lose. There is no negative of relative motion, either it exists
or it doesn't. Absolute zero is attained when all of the molecules in a
sample are at rest with respect to each other.

To be pedantic, the molecules still have plenty of energy left even when
they are at rest with respect to each other, but this is energy of a
different form.

Richard Perry

Dear Binary Object:

"Binary Object" wrote in message
om...
Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat? Why is there a lower bound for cold?

Temperature is a measure of internal energy of a specific sort. You cannot
have less than no internal energy (Dark Energy notwithstanding and not teh
right type anyway), but any finite positive value for energy would be
possible...

David A. Smith

(Binary Object) wrote in message . com...
Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat? Why is there a lower bound for cold?

That's a matter of definition. If you have a scale from 0 to infinity
(the current situation, after a shift) and T is in this scale
you simply can redefine it with T' as T'=f(T) with f a function
(something like a log for example) in a way that
for example f(0)=-infinity, f(273)=0 and f(infinity)=infinity. You can
also define a scale with a maximum temperature and no bottom
or limited at both ends. But the Kelvin scale is the most intuitive
one.

"Binary Object" schrieb im Newsbeitrag om...
Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat? Why is there a lower bound for cold?
Because you can't take out more energy than what's in but
you can always add more.

Greetings!
Volker

(Binary Object) wrote in message . com...
Why is absolute zero approximately -460 F, yet the maximum
possible amount of heat is seemingly infinite? There is
certainly an asymmetry. Why is there no upper bound for
heat? Why is there a lower bound for cold?


Consider what heat and temperature a representations of how fast
atoms are vibrating or bouncing around.

There is a point where they *stop* moving. That's called absolute
zero. Kinda hard to make atoms go slower than a dead stop, so there's
a firm lower bound for temperature.

Those atoms can always move faster, limited only by the speed of
light. But you can keep pushing closer and closer to light speed,
putting more energy (heat) into the atoms until they have nearly
infinite energy. Temperature is thus pretty open ended.

Mike Miller, Materials Engineer