Lost in Space

I recently learne that NASA is planning to send a probe to Europa in 2015.
But for some reason, I started thinking, what if it was not an unmmaned
probe that we were sending, but a manned mission to Europa.
Let's just say.
Not an easy mission. A dangerous misison even. It would take six years
to reach Europa. That's along time. Its a long, long way to go.
780,000,000 km from the Earth. Long, long way. And becuase of the way
my brain works, I suddenly wondered what would happen if, for some
reason (never mind how) it went dark. All communication was lost with
the vessel.
I wondered a few questions. (please don't sniker if they sound stupid)
One, would we still be able to track it? Or would it be "lost". Could
telescopes see something that far that is so small? (a research vessel
would be quite small compared to planets or moons) Basically, could we
"lose" it?
Two, if it was possible to "lose" it once we lost contact, would we,
NASA or ESA for example, bother trying to mount a rescue mission? I
would imagine building another vehicle capable o just a journey...would
be expensive. Would we spend millions to resuce five or six people.

Just wondering.
Dean

Chair of the 'how long is a piece of string' society wrote..."dean"

wrote in message news:2006112212091816807-robodean@gmailcom...
I recently learne that NASA is planning to send a probe to Europa in 2015.
But for some reason, I started thinking, what if it was not an unmanned
probe that we were sending, but a manned mission to Europa.
Let's
Well, unless we do some amazing catch up in the next few years, something
important would fail and kill the crew well before it got there...

just say.
Not an easy mission. A dangerous mission even. It would take six years to
reach Europa. That's along time. Its a long, long way to go. 780,000,000
km from the Earth. Long, long way.


Yes, need to be a nuclear powered mission. Very big vehicle then.
And because of the way
my brain works, I suddenly wondered what would happen if, for some reason
(never mind how) it went dark. All communication was lost with the vessel.
I wondered a few questions. (please don't sniker if they sound stupid)
OK, but can I just grin a bit?

One, would we still be able to track it? Or would it be "lost". Could
telescopes see something that far that is so small? (a research vessel
would be quite small compared to planets or moons) Basically, could we
"lose" it?

Well, I'd imagine we might be able to track it out as far as Mars by then,
but if there was a total failure, what would be the point, as everyone would
be dead? Never see it that far out.

Two, if it was possible to "lose" it once we lost contact, would we, NASA
or ESA for example, bother trying to mount a rescue mission? I would
imagine building another vehicle capable o just a journey...would be
expensive. Would we spend millions to rescue five or six people.

No, it would not be possible as to catch it you would need to be going
faster, and assuming the use of gravity assists etc, its not going to be a
case of just chasing it. No, lights out is goodnight Vienna .

Just wondering.
Dean

Which is one reason nobody would do it in the first place.

I sometimes wonder if you presented a one way mission and asked for
volunteers, if you would get some.

Brian


--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.

On 2006-11-22 12:47:35 -0500, "Brian Gaff" said:

Chair of the 'how long is a piece of string' society wrote..."dean"

wrote in message news:2006112212091816807-robodean@gmailcom...
I recently learne that NASA is planning to send a probe to Europa in 2015.
But for some reason, I started thinking, what if it was not an unmanned
probe that we were sending, but a manned mission to Europa.
Let's
Well, unless we do some amazing catch up in the next few years,
something important would fail and kill the crew well before it got
there...

just say.
Not an easy mission. A dangerous mission even. It would take six years
to reach Europa. That's along time. Its a long, long way to go.
780,000,000 km from the Earth. Long, long way.


Yes, need to be a nuclear powered mission. Very big vehicle then.
And because of the way
my brain works, I suddenly wondered what would happen if, for some
reason (never mind how) it went dark. All communication was lost with
the vessel.
I wondered a few questions. (please don't sniker if they sound stupid)
OK, but can I just grin a bit?
Grin away. Most of friends just roll their eyes.

One, would we still be able to track it? Or would it be "lost". Could
telescopes see something that far that is so small? (a research vessel
would be quite small compared to planets or moons) Basically, could we
"lose" it?

Well, I'd imagine we might be able to track it out as far as Mars by
then, but if there was a total failure, what would be the point, as
everyone would be dead? Never see it that far out.
They would not necessarily be dead. Just imagine a catastrophic faiure
in the communications systems. The ship is fine. Crew is fine. Just
absolutely no contact.
I suppose I just thought, if it went dark, then telescopes could "find"
it knowing their last position after it went quiet.


Two, if it was possible to "lose" it once we lost contact, would we,
NASA or ESA for example, bother trying to mount a rescue mission? I
would imagine building another vehicle capable o just a journey...would
be expensive. Would we spend millions to rescue five or six people.

No, it would not be possible as to catch it you would need to be going
faster, and assuming the use of gravity assists etc, its not going to
be a case of just chasing it. No, lights out is goodnight Vienna .
I never thought of that. of course.

Just wondering.
Dean

Which is one reason nobody would do it in the first place.

I sometimes wonder if you presented a one way mission and asked for
volunteers, if you would get some.

Brian

Thanks so much for feedback.

"Brian Gaff" wrote:

I sometimes wonder if you presented a one way mission and asked for
volunteers, if you would get some.

You'd get any number of them - whether a significant number of them
are qualified, or trainable, or the kind of person you'd want to send
in the _first_ place... Is a very different question.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

On 2006-11-22 14:10:11 -0500, (Derek Lyons) said:

"Brian Gaff" wrote:

I sometimes wonder if you presented a one way mission and asked for
volunteers, if you would get some.

You'd get any number of them - whether a significant number of them
are qualified, or trainable, or the kind of person you'd want to send
in the _first_ place... Is a very different question.

D.

You are so right.
I recently produced a documentary on neural interfaces. All of the
neuroscientists I interviewed recieved regular emails from normal
people volunteering their brains to have implants put in them.

dean wrote:

I recently learne that NASA is planning to send a probe to Europa in 2015.
But for some reason, I started thinking, what if it was not an unmmaned
probe that we were sending, but a manned mission to Europa.

The radiation belts around Jupiter are way too intense for humans to
survive. No known practical shielding methods exist, so this mission is
currently not do-able.

On 2006-11-22 20:49:16 -0500, robert casey said:

dean wrote:

I recently learne that NASA is planning to send a probe to Europa in 2015.
But for some reason, I started thinking, what if it was not an unmmaned
probe that we were sending, but a manned mission to Europa.

The radiation belts around Jupiter are way too intense for humans to
survive. No known practical shielding methods exist, so this mission
is currently not do-able.

Of course you are right.
I was more hung up about the loss of communication with long term
missions. It is conceivable that sometime, in a few decades, we may
start undertaking long range space travel. I was just playing a thought
experiment. What if? What if a spaceship went off to Europa and all its
communication gear went dead. What would or could happen.
But of course, at least for the very near future, you are totally right.

"dean" wrote in message
news:2006112309332116807-robodean@gmailcom...
On 2006-11-22 20:49:16 -0500, robert casey said:

dean wrote:

I recently learne that NASA is planning to send a probe to Europa in
2015.
But for some reason, I started thinking, what if it was not an unmmaned
probe that we were sending, but a manned mission to Europa.

The radiation belts around Jupiter are way too intense for humans to
survive. No known practical shielding methods exist, so this mission is
currently not do-able.

Of course you are right.
I was more hung up about the loss of communication with long term
missions. It is conceivable that sometime, in a few decades, we may start
undertaking long range space travel. I was just playing a thought
experiment. What if? What if a spaceship went off to Europa and all its
communication gear went dead. What would or could happen.
But of course, at least for the very near future, you are totally right.

I suspect they will be provided with multiple communication options with
enough redundancy that if they all failed there would be little chance of
the ship remaining habitable.

uray wrote:
I suspect they will be provided with multiple communication options with
enough redundancy that if they all failed there would be little chance of
the ship remaining habitable.

One exception would be loss of attitude control.

Consider the Mars Observer back in 1992. This unmanned probe abruptly
stopped communicating. There was a plan to point Hubble at Mars to
take a look. Although Hubble could not see the probe, it would be able
to see the glare as the probe fired up its engines to slide into Mars
orbit. Unfortunately Mars was too close to the Sun at the time, so
Hubble didn't get the chance. However, if there was a loss of attitude
control (which is exactly what we think happened to the Mars Observer),
then an engine firing would not have been possible.

A more likely answer is that if we ever send a manned craft to a
deep-space target, it would likely be preceded by lots of unmanned
craft. Look at Mars for example. When we finally get there, we will
have a full orbital communications network, a Martian GPS and the
astronauts will be tipping over old rovers. Thus if we lose
communication with the astronauts, we'd be able to look for them using
robotic assets already in place.

" wrote in
oups.com:

uray wrote:
I suspect they will be provided with multiple communication options
with enough redundancy that if they all failed there would be little
chance of the ship remaining habitable.

One exception would be loss of attitude control.

Consider the Mars Observer back in 1992. This unmanned probe abruptly
stopped communicating. There was a plan to point Hubble at Mars to
take a look.

You sure about that? The first Hubble servicing mission wasn't until
December 1993, and until then, Hubble didn't have the resolution to see
much of anything.

A more likely answer is that if we ever send a manned craft to a
deep-space target, it would likely be preceded by lots of unmanned
craft. Look at Mars for example. When we finally get there, we will
have a full orbital communications network, a Martian GPS and the
astronauts will be tipping over old rovers. Thus if we lose
communication with the astronauts, we'd be able to look for them using
robotic assets already in place.

I agree there will be robotic assets, but I don't think they will be as
extensive as you paint it. A Martian GPS (MPS?) is a nice luxury but will
likely be one of the first things axed when overruns start occurring on the
manned side of the mission. There will be plenty of Mars orbiters between
now and the first manned landing but as MGS showed, even the best-
engineered of them may not last that long.


--
JRF

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