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....It Doesn't Matter if Global Warming is a Fact or Not!



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 6th 07, 03:14 AM posted to sci.space.policy,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
Jonathan
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Posts: 705
Default ....It Doesn't Matter if Global Warming is a Fact or Not!


Why?

Quite simple really. Since Katrina and the 2005 hurricane
season the world now...believes...global warming is a fact.
As a result our biosphere will become managed, probably
by regulating Co2 content.

This means the predicted futures by either side of the
debate will ....NO LONGER HAPPEN.

And we'll never know which side was correct. Who cares?

The new belief in global warming has altered our future.
It has rendered all the predictions moot. Whether by
anecdotes, facts or flat our distortions, the new
belief in global warming is the 'fact' that counts.

Here's the thing most people can't and won't accept.

The future cannot be predicted very well at all.
Like the weather we can have some short-lived
predictability. But the long term is beyond our
objective scientific methods. For the simple
reason that life and intelligence will conspire
to build their own future based not on the facts
on the ground (inputs), but on things such as
our needs, desires and beliefs. Wrong or right
such things shape our reality and future while
defying rational methods of prediction.

All the time this debate has been political, not scientific.
In politics the facts are not as important as opinions
and what matters is who wins, not who was correct.
In the battle for public opinion global warming
has won hands down.

And since this means a managed biosphere where
no catastrophe happens, the world is better for it.

It no longer matters if global warming is
a fact or not. Never did.

Facts are for understanding the past.
Opinions are for shaping the future.
It's always the future the matters
the most.



Jonathan

s




  #2  
Old December 6th 07, 03:36 AM posted to sci.space.policy, alt.global-warming, alt.politics
Roger Coppock
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Posts: 71
Default ....It Doesn't Matter if Global Warming is a Fact or Not!

On Dec 5, 6:14 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
As a result our biosphere will become managed, probably
by regulating Co2 content.


This is by no means certain. Right now, there
are some very powerful special interests against
it: fossil fuel, automobile, and electric power
interests to name a just a few.

[ . . . ]

The future cannot be predicted very well at all.


Yet, you offer your own predictions! LOL!
  #3  
Old December 6th 07, 03:55 AM posted to sci.space.policy, alt.global-warming, alt.politics
Bawana
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Posts: 44
Default ....It Doesn't Matter if Global Warming is a Fact or Not!

On Dec 5, 9:36 pm, Roger Coppock wrote:
On Dec 5, 6:14 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

As a result our biosphere will become managed, probably
by regulating Co2 content.


This is by no means certain.


You finally got something correct, co2puke.
The lunatic fringe ain't got the juice.

  #4  
Old December 6th 07, 07:14 AM posted to sci.space.policy, alt.global-warming, alt.politics
BradGuth
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Posts: 21,544
Default ....It Doesn't Matter if Global Warming is a Fact or Not!

On Dec 5, 6:14 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

It no longer matters if global warming is
a fact or not. Never did.

Facts are for understanding the past.
Opinions are for shaping the future.
It's always the future the matters
the most.

Jonathan


But if the future is based so entirely upon past disinformation, lies
and/or the cultivated exclusion of evidence that might rock our fleet
of mainstream status quo boats, then what has that future got to
behold but other than new and improved lies?

Shouldn't there ever be a truthful history or basis for anything?
- Brad Guth
  #5  
Old December 6th 07, 10:51 AM posted to sci.space.policy,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
Jonathan
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Posts: 705
Default ....It Doesn't Matter if Global Warming is a Fact or Not!


"Roger Coppock" wrote in message
...
On Dec 5, 6:14 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
As a result our biosphere will become managed, probably
by regulating Co2 content.


This is by no means certain. Right now, there
are some very powerful special interests against
it: fossil fuel, automobile, and electric power
interests to name a just a few.



I think the last straw for even these powerful
hold outs will come during the Beijing Olympics
next August. When the world gets to see first
hand what it's like to live in the most polluted
city in the world. Pollution caused mostly
by burning coal. Which the third world is
burning more all the time. If developing another
clean replacement for fossil fuels is neglected
even the west may resort to using more and
more coal as oil continues to climb in price.




[ . . . ]

The future cannot be predicted very well at all.


Yet, you offer your own predictions! LOL!



Your point is well-taken about my predicting
the future. But I believe I've done nothing more than take
an existing pattern of human behavior and make a
short term extrapolation into the future. Which is
a bit like predicting the weather, some predictability
can be found, but only so much.

It's not much of a prediction to say the biosphere will be
managed when the wheels are already in motion.
In my state of Florida all kinds of initiatives are
moving ahead such as a plan to use ocean
currents to power up to half the energy needs
of the state. And so on. It's been a constant
drumbeat for over a year now.




s

  #6  
Old December 6th 07, 10:52 AM posted to sci.space.policy,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
Jonathan
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Posts: 705
Default ....It Doesn't Matter if Global Warming is a Fact or Not!


"Bawana" wrote in message
...
On Dec 5, 9:36 pm, Roger Coppock wrote:
On Dec 5, 6:14 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

As a result our biosphere will become managed, probably
by regulating Co2 content.


This is by no means certain.


You finally got something correct, co2puke.
The lunatic fringe ain't got the juice.



The lunatic fringe is now those that deny global warming
exists. Wake up and smell the political reality of ...today.





  #7  
Old December 6th 07, 11:29 AM posted to sci.space.policy,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
Jonathan
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Posts: 705
Default ....It Doesn't Matter if Global Warming is a Fact or Not!


"BradGuth" wrote in message
...
On Dec 5, 6:14 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

It no longer matters if global warming is
a fact or not. Never did.

Facts are for understanding the past.
Opinions are for shaping the future.
It's always the future the matters
the most.

Jonathan


But if the future is based so entirely upon past disinformation, lies
and/or the cultivated exclusion of evidence that might rock our fleet
of mainstream status quo boats, then what has that future got to
behold but other than new and improved lies?



Misinformation and lies? That's one way of putting it I suppose.
But this debate is trying to predict the long term future
of the most complicated and unpredictable system
that nature has to offer....the biosphere. Which involves
not just geology and meterology, but life processes and
even politics considering human effects on the environment.

This is, and was, a debate that cannot be won by scientific
methods...facts. It's just too complex. From my perspective
of complexity science, I would say the system being
studied has near infinite uncertainty. No amount of
facts is going to change that, or bring certainty where
there's none to be found.

Think of it this way. The Mona Lisa. What makes it art?

It's the total system uncertainty displayed by painting
the primary emotional features so that they express
....neither...endpoint in expression. The corners of the
eyes and mouth are left hazy, so no one can tell
if the turn up or down. Her hair flowing and soft
on one side, harsh and angular on the other.
And so on, and so on it goes. Uncertainty elegantly
displayed in every major system 'variable'.

This leaves it to the....observer...to decide her emotions.
Is she devious, sexy, or what? As it is very deliberately
NOT defined by the 'facts' or painting. So it is with global
warming, the uncertainty in predicting the near infinite
variables of the biosphere is overwhelming. So that
only the ...observer...can define the future, as it
cannot define its future for us.


Shouldn't there ever be a truthful history or basis for anything?



NO! And I keep trying to get this point across about nature.
Evolution is the result of a system that displays the total
uncertainty as I've tried to describe in the Mona Lisa.
When all the primary system variables are complex
at the same time, complex meaning uncertain or
unpredictable. Then, and only then, does the system
evolve. Creation, and nature itself, is driven by
the level of complexity of the system.

If we can precisely define something, it's not life.
If it cannot objectively be defined, it tends to
self organize and evolve. You have to get
that relationship to understand why using
objective methods to understand nature is
futile.

Which means any naturally evolving system cannot be
defined objectively..by the facts. In the ...real world..
there is no such thing as objective reality. Only
on the blackboard. Nature moves too fast and
behaves too critically to be precisely defined.

As for the long term prediction of the most complex
system on earth, that truth holds with
....absolute certainty.

The only truth in the universe is that there is no truth.
Everything evolves, even the universal constants.

But since objective methods define the exact opposite
way in which we should define nature. Inversing
classical methods, rigorously, should allow
another way.

Which is what complexity science is doing.
Using...subjective...methods based on the
outputs, not inputs. Based on effects, not
cause. And so on.

Complexity science has figured out how to
mathematically define ....uncertainty.
Or complexity.

And voila! Nature becomes knowable...
for the first time. As does the future.

That we should stop trying to predict
the future, and instead start /creating/
the one we desire. That's the only way
to bring predictability to the future.

And that's what the debate is really about.
Should we plan/control our future biosphere or not?
Or just hope for the best?

The world just answered that question, we should
take control of our own destiny and create
the future we need.


Self Organizing System Faqs
http://www.calresco.org/sos/sosfaq.htm

Dynamics of Complex Systems
http://necsi.org/publications/dcs/index.html


s

- Brad Guth


  #8  
Old December 6th 07, 04:11 PM posted to sci.space.policy, alt.global-warming, alt.politics
Bawana
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Posts: 44
Default ....It Doesn't Matter if Global Warming is a Fact or Not!

On Dec 6, 4:52 am, "Jonathan" wrote:
"Bawana" wrote in message

...

On Dec 5, 9:36 pm, Roger Coppock wrote:
On Dec 5, 6:14 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:


As a result our biosphere will become managed, probably
by regulating Co2 content.


This is by no means certain.


You finally got something correct, co2puke.
The lunatic fringe ain't got the juice.


The lunatic fringe is [left-tards with brain cancer and other mental maladies.]


That's better, you ****ing left-turd-loon.
  #9  
Old December 6th 07, 06:03 PM posted to sci.space.policy,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
Ouroboros_Rex
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Posts: 14
Default ....It Doesn't Matter if Global Warming is a Fact or Not!


"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

Why?

Quite simple really. Since Katrina and the 2005 hurricane
season the world now...believes...global warming is a fact.
As a result our biosphere will become managed, probably
by regulating Co2 content.

This means the predicted futures by either side of the
debate will ....NO LONGER HAPPEN.

And we'll never know which side was correct.


I'm afraid that's simply not the case.


  #10  
Old December 6th 07, 11:20 PM posted to sci.space.policy, alt.global-warming, alt.politics
BradGuth
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Posts: 21,544
Default ....It Doesn't Matter if Global Warming is a Fact or Not!

On Dec 6, 2:29 am, "Jonathan" wrote:
"BradGuth" wrote in message

...


On Dec 5, 6:14 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:


It no longer matters if global warming is
a fact or not. Never did.


Facts are for understanding the past.
Opinions are for shaping the future.
It's always the future the matters
the most.


Jonathan


But if the future is based so entirely upon past disinformation, lies
and/or the cultivated exclusion of evidence that might rock our fleet
of mainstream status quo boats, then what has that future got to
behold but other than new and improved lies?


Misinformation and lies? That's one way of putting it I suppose.
But this debate is trying to predict the long term future
of the most complicated and unpredictable system
that nature has to offer....the biosphere. Which involves
not just geology and meterology, but life processes and
even politics considering human effects on the environment.

This is, and was, a debate that cannot be won by scientific
methods...facts. It's just too complex. From my perspective
of complexity science, I would say the system being
studied has near infinite uncertainty. No amount of
facts is going to change that, or bring certainty where
there's none to be found.


Nothing is too complicated for honestly replicated scientific facts.
Those laws of physics are simply not as faith-based skewed or as
nearly hocus-pocus as you claim, and sufficient supercomputers do
exist that can put it all together in one do-everything interactive
format.

But then why have you folks continually excluded the horrific gravity/
tidal force of our moon, or even that of its IR albedo?

Don't bother giving me any of that crapolla that it has always been
with Earth, because there is no such replicated science that's
objective enough to support that notion for other than having been
with us since the last ice-age.

Humanity may be at least 10% responsible for AGW, but it's highly
unlikely that we're worth 25% or much less entirely because, there's
simply too much global energy involved, of which our nearby and
unusually massive moon is simply a very big part of our global
environment that's still in the process of going AWG postal ever since
the very last ice-age this world is ever going to see, or at least as
long as Earth holds so tightly onto that physically dark and so
unusually massive moon of ours.
- Brad Guth
 




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