Re - Hypersonic scramjet transports imminent.

On May 4 2009, 3:51 pm, Robert Clark wrote:
On May 3, 1:34 pm, alien8er wrote:

On May 2, 10:17 pm, "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)"
wrote:

"RobertClark" wrote in message

...
... Ceiling 30000 m (100000 ft)

...

There goes the ozone layer.

And good riddance, I say.

Seriously, no, I don't think hypersonic transports are coming any
time soon. The lift-to-drag improvements won't likely scale up to
passenger-sized aircraft; the Mach cone's just too damn narrow.

Mark L. Fergerson.

We might make a guess on the time frame on the development of a
hypersonic commercial transport if the X-51 test is successful based
on the case of the jet engine.

Interesting articles on the developers of the jet engine:

Frank Whittlehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Whittle

Hans von Ohain.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_von_Ohain

Frank Whittle in England first came up with the idea for a jet engine
in 1929. There was a lot of skepticism for the idea and he did not
come up with a working prototype then. He was able though to get a
patent on it in 1930. He was first able to come up with a working
prototype in ground tests in 1937.
Hans von Ohain in Germany independently came up with the idea in 1933.
He was also able to produce a working ground prototype in 1937. After
some more refinements, it was first tested in aircraft in 1939, only 2
years after the first successful ground tests.
After finally getting funding and support from the British government
Frank Whittle, was able to get the first tests in aircraft in 1941.
Actual deployed jet fighters for both countries came only a couple of
years after these first flying prototypes.
The first jet airliner was first tested in 1949 and came into service
in 1952:

Jet airliner.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_airliner

So a prototype commercial jet transport was produced only 10 years
after a prototype jet fighter, which came only two years after the
first jet engine ground tests. Following this model, we might expect a
prototype hypersonic jet fighter within 2 years, and a prototype
hypersonic transport within 10 years after that.
The X-15 which flew up to Mach 6.7 in the 1960's was already able to
withstand the thermal heating at those speeds and likely could be an
already existing airframe to test thescramjetengine on. More
advanced airframes to optimize range and lift-to-drag ratios would be
waverider lifting body shapes:

Waverider Design.http://www.aerospaceweb.org/design/w...averider.shtml

Bob Clark


A more detailed discussion of the Wednesday test flight of the X-51A
hypersonic scramjet:

Scramjet Success.
Aviation Week and Space Technology, May 28, 2010
By Graham Warwick
Washington
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...mjet%20Success

This mentions the key advance that this is over the X-43A flight that
ran on hydrogen even though that earlier flight reached higher speeds.
The X-43A flight only lasted 10 seconds before the engine melted from
the heat. The X-51A engine could run indefinitely at hypersonic
speeds, a key requirement for a engine used for transport.

I like the way Charlie Brink X-51A program manager described the
Wednesday test flight:

May 26, 2010, 6:18 p.m. EDT
Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne Scramjet Powers Historic First Flight of
X-51A WaveRider.
"Charlie Brink, X-51A program manager with the Air Force Research
Laboratory at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, said: 'We are
ecstatic to have accomplished many of the test objectives on the
X-51A's very first hypersonic mission. We equate this leap in engine
technology as equivalent to the post-World War II jump from propellers
to jet engines."
http://www.marke****ch.com/story/pra...k=MW_news_stmp

My opinion is that prototype scramjet flight vehicles will be fielded
in similar time frames to how soon jet aircraft prototypes were made
after the first working jet engines were made.


Bob Clark

On May 28, 10:55*pm, Robert Clark wrote:
On May 4 2009, 3:51 pm, Robert Clark wrote:





On May 3, 1:34 pm, alien8er wrote:

On May 2, 10:17 pm, "N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)"
wrote:

"RobertClark" wrote in message

...
... Ceiling 30000 m (100000 ft)

...

There goes the ozone layer.

* And good riddance, I say.

* Seriously, no, I don't think hypersonic transports are coming any
time soon. The lift-to-drag improvements won't likely scale up to
passenger-sized aircraft; the Mach cone's just too damn narrow.

* Mark L. Fergerson.

We might make a guess on the time frame on the development of a
hypersonic commercial transport if the X-51 test is successful based
on the case of the jet engine.

Interesting articles on the developers of the jet engine:

Frank Whittlehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Whittle

Hans von Ohain.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_von_Ohain

Frank Whittle in England first came up with the idea for a jet engine
in 1929. There was a lot of skepticism for the idea and he did not
come up with a working prototype then. He was able though to get a
patent on it in 1930. He was first able to come up with a working
prototype in ground tests in 1937.
Hans von Ohain in Germany independently came up with the idea in 1933.
He was also able to produce a working ground prototype in 1937. After
some more refinements, it was first tested in aircraft in 1939, only 2
years after the first successful ground tests.
After finally getting funding and support from the British government
Frank Whittle, was able to get the first tests in aircraft in 1941.
Actual deployed jet fighters for both countries came only a couple of
years after these first flying prototypes.
The first jet airliner was first tested in 1949 and came into service
in 1952:

Jet airliner.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_airliner

*So a prototype commercial jet transport was produced only 10 years
after a prototype jet fighter, which came only two years after the
first jet engine ground tests. Following this model, we might expect a
prototype hypersonic jet fighter within 2 years, and a prototype
hypersonic transport within 10 years after that.
The X-15 which flew up to Mach 6.7 in the 1960's was already able to
withstand the thermal heating at those speeds and likely could be an
already existing airframe to test thescramjetengine on. More
advanced airframes to optimize range and lift-to-drag ratios would be
waverider lifting body shapes:

Waverider Design.http://www.aerospaceweb.org/design/w...verider..shtml

Bob Clark

A more detailed discussion of the Wednesday test flight of the X-51A
hypersonic scramjet:

Scramjet Success.
Aviation Week and Space Technology, May 28, 2010
By Graham Warwick
Washingtonhttp://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst...

This mentions the key advance that this is over the X-43A flight that
ran on hydrogen even though that earlier flight reached higher speeds.
The X-43A flight only lasted 10 seconds before the engine melted from
the heat. The X-51A engine could run indefinitely at hypersonic
speeds, a key requirement for a engine used for transport.

I like the way Charlie Brink X-51A program manager described the
Wednesday test flight:

May 26, 2010, 6:18 p.m. EDT
Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne Scramjet Powers Historic First Flight of
X-51A WaveRider.
"Charlie Brink, X-51A program manager with the Air Force Research
Laboratory at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, said: 'We are
ecstatic to have accomplished many of the test objectives on the
X-51A's very first hypersonic mission. We equate this leap in engine
technology as equivalent to the post-World War II jump from propellers
to jet engines."http://www.marke****ch.com/story/pratt-whitney-rocketdyne-scramjet-po...

My opinion is that prototype scramjet flight vehicles will be fielded
in similar time frames to how soon jet aircraft prototypes were made
after the first working jet engines were made.

* * Bob Clark- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Let's hope. Today decicing, is there a point to go to Moon takes much
more time then whole Apollo project back then...

On May 28, 3:55*pm, Robert Clark wrote:
...
A more detailed discussion of the Wednesday test flight of the X-51Ahypersonicscramjet:

ScramjetSuccess.
Aviation Week and Space Technology, May 28, 2010
By Graham Warwick
Washingtonhttp://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst...

This mentions the key advance that this is over the X-43A flight that
ran on hydrogen even though that earlier flight reached higher speeds.
The X-43A flight only lasted 10 seconds before the engine melted from
the heat. The X-51A engine could run indefinitely athypersonic
speeds, a key requirement for a engine used for transport.

I like the way Charlie Brink X-51A program manager described the
Wednesday test flight:

May 26, 2010, 6:18 p.m. EDT
Pratt & Whitney RocketdyneScramjetPowers Historic First Flight of
X-51A WaveRider.
"Charlie Brink, X-51A program manager with the Air Force Research
Laboratory at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, said: 'We are
ecstatic to have accomplished many of the test objectives on the
X-51A's very firsthypersonicmission. We equate this leap in engine
technology as equivalent to the post-World War II jump from propellers
to jet engines."http://www.marke****ch.com/story/pratt-whitney-rocketdyne-scramjet-po...

My opinion is that prototypescramjetflight vehicles will be fielded
in similar time frames to how soon jet aircraft prototypes were made
after the first working jet engines were made.



Air Force Sees Hypersonic Weapons and Spaceships in Future.
By Jeremy Hsu
SPACE.com Staff Writer
posted: 17 June 2010
05:30 am ET
"Rise of the space planes.
"If scramjet technology advances far enough, it could become part of a
system that helps propel unmanned or manned vehicles into space. Space
planes might even emerge that can fly into space at just about any
time, without launch window constraints.
"A scramjet-powered vehicle would need to rely upon a regular rocket
or jet engine to reach Mach 4, so that the scramjet could take over
for hypersonic speeds during the first stage to Earth orbit.
"The X-51A scramjet engine would not be enough by itself to allow a
vehicle to reach orbit, said Joseph Vogel, hypersonics director and
X-51 program manager at Boeing Phantom Works/Defense, during the
teleconference. Both Boeing and Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne formed part
of the private consortium that helped design and build the X-51A.
"Any future space-lift system would also need a more energetic
hydrogen-based fuel, rather than the JP-7 jet fuel used in supersonic
aircraft, Vogel explained.
"I would say that within the next 15 to 30 years — I'll give you the
broad side — but probably 15 to 20 years, you could start to see this
technology being expanded to the point where you could get aircraft
into outer space," Vogel said."
http://www.space.com/businesstechnol...re-100617.html

This time estimate is for space ships. Then we would estimate the
time frame for transports just within the atmosphere to be shorter.

Bob Clark