Running multiple HET in parallel?

Ian Stirling wrote:
Derek Lyons wrote:
"Carey Sublette" wrote:

With modern freezing technology there are very few
foods that cannot be frozen effectively.

So long as you define 'effectively' to exclude texture, taste, and
visual appeal.

Millions live on frozen meals, chocolate bars, and fizzy drinks.

Yeah, and if it goes badly, part of that is "school meal" ...


If the price of going into space is eating slightly boring food, with much
better nutrition than stuff I might pick off the the supermarket shelf, then
I'm willing to make the supreme sacrifice.

I suspect I'm not alone.

I think somewhere the priorities of space programs etc have gone terribly
awry. Why is it that nothing can happen unless teh astronauts are in way
less danger than sailors on common 1st world fishing boats? Never mind
3rd world ones.

Couldn't we just assign them a certain amount of weight and size into which
they can fit their food and then have them make their own decisions? They
are adult, after all...

--
Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++

Sander Vesik wrote:

[...]
I think somewhere the priorities of space programs etc have gone terribly
awry. Why is it that nothing can happen unless teh astronauts are in way
less danger than sailors on common 1st world fishing boats? Never mind
3rd world ones.

Couldn't we just assign them a certain amount of weight and size into
which
they can fit their food and then have them make their own decisions? They
are adult, after all...


But they aren't acting on their own. They are being *sent* by *us*. On
*our* dime. When this changes, then *we* don't have to be responsible for
their safety.

/dps

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

D Schneider wrote:

But they aren't acting on their own. They are being *sent* by *us*.
On *our* dime. When this changes, then *we* don't have to be
responsible for their safety.

Why do we have to be responsible for their safety anyway? Is some
big nanny in the sky going to shake her finger at us?

Paul

"Carey Sublette" wrote:
There is a very substantial, and growing, frozen gourmet food industry. A
little googling, or a trip to a high-end supermarket, easily turns up an
vast range of products.

It turns up what seems to be a vast range. In reality, you find it's
a fairly narrow range with a bunch of different producers for each
article. Most of the foods in question are 'gourmet' only because
their labels say so. Their target audience is those that want to
think that by eating 'gourmet' foods they are a 'gourmet'. Madison
Avenue determined years ago that the motto of most consumers is 'style
over substance'.

Stae-of-the-art commercial super flash freezing (which uses ammonia baths
at -65 C), vacuum sealed pouches, and well-controlled preparation processes
introduces few compromises in texture, taste, or appearance and none in
nutrition.

That's the theory anyhow. The reality is otherwise. (Type of storage
(frost free vs non-frost free), and defrosting mechanisms play are
large role as well.)

Frozen foods are often better in nutrition and not infrequently
in esthetic qualities compared to "real world" fresh, because shipping,
handling, and storage allow for more deterioration for the "fresh".

If it's deteriorated, it's not fresh Carey.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

Paul F. Dietz wrote:
D Schneider wrote:

But they aren't acting on their own. They are being *sent* by
*us*.
On *our* dime. When this changes, then *we* don't have to be
responsible for their safety.

Why do we have to be responsible for their safety anyway? Is some
big nanny in the sky going to shake her finger at us?

Paul

As their employer and outfitter, we have that responsibility.
Is that clear enough?

When the time comes that explorers of Mars can be self-employed, fine,
but until then...

/dps

wrote:

On *our* dime. When this changes, then *we* don't have to be
responsible for their safety.

Why do we have to be responsible for their safety anyway? Is some
big nanny in the sky going to shake her finger at us?


As their employer and outfitter, we have that responsibility.
Is that clear enough?

It's an argument by assertion. Clear, but completely unconvincing.

Paul

"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
"Carey Sublette" wrote:
There is a very substantial, and growing, frozen gourmet food industry. A
little googling, or a trip to a high-end supermarket, easily turns up an
vast range of products.

It turns up what seems to be a vast range. In reality, you find it's
a fairly narrow range with a bunch of different producers for each
article.
Most of the foods in question are 'gourmet' only because
their labels say so. Their target audience is those that want to
think that by eating 'gourmet' foods they are a 'gourmet'. Madison
Avenue determined years ago that the motto of most consumers is 'style
over substance'.

You haven't actually tried the "high-end supermarket" shopping bit have you?

Stae-of-the-art commercial super flash freezing (which uses ammonia baths
at -65 C), vacuum sealed pouches, and well-controlled preparation
processes
introduces few compromises in texture, taste, or appearance and none in
nutrition.

That's the theory anyhow. The reality is otherwise. (Type of storage
(frost free vs non-frost free), and defrosting mechanisms play are
large role as well.)

Uh-huh. And poorly cooked food tastes lousy. Still that says nothing at all
about food that is prepared well.

The point is modern freezing technology works very well. The fact that it
can be stored badly, and defrosted using poor techniques says nothing at
all.


Frozen foods are often better in nutrition and not infrequently
in esthetic qualities compared to "real world" fresh, because shipping,
handling, and storage allow for more deterioration for the "fresh".

If it's deteriorated, it's not fresh Carey.

Derek, this is very amusing.

You believe food does not begin deteriorating from the moment it is
harvested (picked/slaughtered) or prepared?

Refrigeration (and other storage techniques, like CO2 atmospheres) retards
deterioration, keeping it to acceptable levels for reasonable periods of
time. Every bit of "fresh" food you buy has deteriorated in measurable ways
from its point of origin. Even if food science isn't your bag (and I'd say,
it isn't), basic biology and chemistry should clue you in on this.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Paul F. Dietz wrote:
D Schneider wrote:

But they aren't acting on their own. They are being *sent* by
*us*.
On *our* dime. When this changes, then *we* don't have to be
responsible for their safety.

Why do we have to be responsible for their safety anyway? Is some
big nanny in the sky going to shake her finger at us?

Paul

As their employer and outfitter, we have that responsibility.
Is that clear enough?

When the time comes that explorers of Mars can be self-employed, fine,
but until then...

There is a more hard-headed answer: the astronaut has agreed to serve as an
agent of exploration for the space program and some billions of dollars are
being invested per astronaut to carry out the exploration mission. The space
program will do everything possible to ensure that the astronaut will remain
capable of carrying out his/her duties to protect the mission (and
investment), and the astronaut will be *required* to comply with a dietary
program that space program nutritionists and psychologists believe will
ensure their continued ability to perform their duties.

There is nothing altruistic about this at all. Ayn Rand would approve.

"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
"Carey Sublette" wrote:
There is a very substantial, and growing, frozen gourmet food industry. A
little googling, or a trip to a high-end supermarket, easily turns up an
vast range of products.

It turns up what seems to be a vast range. In reality, you find it's
a fairly narrow range with a bunch of different producers for each
article.

Check out:
http://www.hvk.org/hvk/articles/0403/235.html

This is a New York Times account of the frozen foods available from just one
company for one particular (small) segment of the frozen food market -
ethnic Indian cuisine in the U.S.. The frozen foods available for this one
market segment runs at least into the hundreds of products (go to nice
store in an Indian community in the U.S. to check it out). Similar articles
can easily be run about other ethnic markets - Latino/Hispanic, Chinese and
other East Asian (actually several separate markets), etc.; as well as other
vegetarian foods, etc.

The diversity of foods available today is quite staggering.

Having someone argue that the available high quality frozen food products is
a "fairly narrow range" is a bit like encountering someone who asserts that
the automobile has yet to really seriously challenge the horse and carriage.

Carey Sublette

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 13:41:12 +0000, Carey Sublette wrote:



I think the "cherry box" on the viewgraph: " Improvements in food
storage technology or production technology are also needed to reduce
overall mass and ensure crew health." states the issue accurate, but the
other sentence on the slide:
"Current food preservation technology is not capable of providing
nutritionally viable food for the longer mission durations under study"
is a bit of a misstatement.

Ensuring crew health requires a diet that is varied and palatable so
that the crew eats properly, and the food itself is not a source of
stress on the mission (psychological health).

And the trick is to do it with low mass foods (i.e. dehydrated).

Also, nutrition science is far beyond the RDA stage - finding the
essential individual components in a diet required for health. We all
know about the debates about what makes an *optimum* healthy diets: What
kind of fats and in what proportion? How much and what kind of fiber?
How much flavonoids and carotenoids, and what kinds, with what ratios?
Etc.

I think it is the combined problem of satisfying all of these together,
and quite clearly no one has ever developed a food system like this
before.

The whole viewgraph presentation is about design trade-offs, and the
dietary aspect of a mission is going to involve trade-offs of its own.
For a palatable, optimally healthy, indefinitely storable diet a
solution is at hand right now - just prepare thousands of excellent
meals and freeze them in ready-to-eat form. But this is quite heavy with
all that water. Maintaining the good qualities of those meals but
getting rid of the water mass, not so easy.




I've always thought a garden is the way to go. Lots of ......

When I went sailing a while back, it was the fresh stuff I missed most.
The crunch of a nice salad, squish of a fresh tomatoes, that type of
thing. The lettuce we had after two or three weeks (with no refrigeration)
was great, even though I had to peel off the outer centimeter or so of
scum.

That and human converstion, but that won't be a problem with the going to
Mars. Or, will it?????????

--
Craig Fink
Cbhegrfl R-Znvy Jrypbzr @