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The subculture that obscured genuine astronomy



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 14th 18, 09:32 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default The subculture that obscured genuine astronomy

The illusory loops (direct/retrograde motion) of the slower moving planets seen from Earth are distinguished from the actual loops (also direct/retrograde motion) of the faster moving Venus and Mercury closer to the Sun -

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap160915.html

https://www.popastro.com/images/plan...ary%202012.jpg

So, we see the back and forth motions of Venus and its smaller orbital circumference as it runs its circuit around the Sun.

The theorists following Newton never understood his notions and specifically where he was getting his absolute/relative space and motion. He trumped up an idea of seeing the planets from the Sun to account for direct/retrogrades and so began his pathetic modeling based on motions seen from Earth (relative space and motion) and motions seen from the Sun (absolute space and motion) -

"For to the earth planetary motions appear sometimes direct, sometimes
stationary, nay, and sometimes retrograde. But from the sun they are
always seen direct,..." Newton

I have no intention of throwing valuable information after bad, however, if people want to throw away the partitioning of direct/retrogrades by perspectives seen from a moving Earth, that is awful considering how easy it is to explain.

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  #2  
Old October 15th 18, 08:16 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default The subculture that obscured genuine astronomy

To be fair to the empiricists, even if they didn't know it, they were inheriting a system of predictions/observations that don't naturally fit together. Kepler's graphic representation of data based on Mars as seen from a moving Earth is still considered geocentric despite Kepler's statement to the contrary -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann...retrograde.jpg

"Copernicus, by attributing a single annual motion to the earth,entirely rids the planets of these extremely intricate coils leading the individual planets into their respective orbits ,quite bare and very nearly circular. In the period of time shown in the diagram, Mars traverses one and the same orbit as many times as the 'garlands' you see looped towards the center,with one extra, making nine times, while at the same time the Earth repeats its circle sixteen times " Johannes Kepler

All these academics this week lecturing students have no idea what constitutes the original reasoning of the first Sun-centred astronomers and why their views were already deficient but not in a fatal way, only that they don't account for the motions of Venus and Mercury and their actual loops of the Sun seen from a slower moving Earth.

Sir Isaac thinks that if you plonk the Sun in the middle of the diagram then retrogrades disappear but that nuclear option which he called absolute/relative space and motion as he assumes observations seen from Earth transform into observations seen from the Sun.

Watching mathematicians flounder around like fish out of water is pathetic regardless of how they appear to the wider world but I have left room open for those with enough common sense to deal with the matter like men instead of fools.

  #3  
Old October 16th 18, 01:33 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Default The subculture that obscured genuine astronomy

On Sunday, October 14, 2018 at 1:32:08 PM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

The illusory loops (direct/retrograde motion) of the slower moving planets seen from Earth are distinguished from the actual loops (also direct/retrograde motion) of the faster moving Venus and Mercury closer to the Sun...


Apparently, you are *still* too uneducated to understand that both Mercury and Venus, in fact, *DO* perform illusionary loops WRT the background stars, in addition to the big swoopy loops they make WRT the Sun and the horizon. Take a good look at these...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv-ZPxf07ks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtV0PV9MF88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYYwNvjr7Lg

Pretty cool, isn't it?
  #4  
Old October 16th 18, 08:31 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default The subculture that obscured genuine astronomy

On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 1:34:02 AM UTC+1, palsing wrote:
On Sunday, October 14, 2018 at 1:32:08 PM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

The illusory loops (direct/retrograde motion) of the slower moving planets seen from Earth are distinguished from the actual loops (also direct/retrograde motion) of the faster moving Venus and Mercury closer to the Sun....


Apparently, you are *still* too uneducated to understand that both Mercury and Venus, in fact, *DO* perform illusionary loops WRT the background stars, in addition to the big swoopy loops they make WRT the Sun and the horizon. Take a good look at these...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv-ZPxf07ks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtV0PV9MF88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYYwNvjr7Lg

Pretty cool, isn't it?


Those demonstrations are all nonsense but most people who actually enjoy astronomy know that already. The lead in to the actual loops of Venus and Mercury ,at least when showing students, is perhaps showing how the satellites Jupiter run their circuits around their parent planet and then applying the same principle to the faster Venus in a smaller orbital circumference seen from a slower moving Earth -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqZEgoJasPQ&t=95s

https://www.popastro.com/images/plan...ary%202012.jpg


All the pieces fit together, the size increase, the reason the phases prevent Venus from becoming appreciably brighter as it approaches close to the Earth in our common solar orbit, the back and forth motion of the planet against the background stars as it moves in front of the Sun and then in the opposite direction behind the Sun.

The most important feature is found in the transition from left to right of the Sun or from an evening to morning appearance (and back again) as transits signify the point at which Venus is closest to us while overtaking our planet with the central Sun as a backdrop -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9rM8ChTjY&t=39s


When applied to the stars, the transition from an evening to morning appearance is proof of the Earth's orbital motion while setting the Sun up as a central reference for the motions of Venus and Mercury so their direct/retrograde motions are just a consequence of seeing them move directly around the Sun and not an illusion.

The first Sun centred astronomer were enthusiastic about the resolution of direct/retrogrades of the slower moving planets but were unsure as to how to treat Mercury and Venus. Despite all the technological and imaging advances, I see no enthusiasm for the separate perspective which deals with the direct/retrogrades of Venus and Mercury despite some people actually knowing most of what goes into the resolution. All in its own time as far as I am concerned.



  #5  
Old October 16th 18, 02:07 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Davoud[_1_]
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Default The subculture that obscured genuine astronomy

palsing addressed Gerald Kelleher:

Apparently, you are *still* too uneducated...


But now you have set him on the straight and narrow and his trolling
days are over, right?

Who's the bigger fool the puppeteer or the puppet? I would argue its
you, Kelleher's puppet.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
  #6  
Old October 17th 18, 06:57 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Default The subculture that obscured genuine astronomy

On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 6:07:19 AM UTC-7, Davoud wrote:
palsing addressed Gerald Kelleher:

Apparently, you are *still* too uneducated...


But now you have set him on the straight and narrow and his trolling
days are over, right?

Who's the bigger fool ‹ the puppeteer or the puppet? I would argue its
you, Kelleher's puppet.


Well, I see that *you* also responded, yet again.

My question is, why? Many times you have stated that you agree with almost everything I have said...

We have had this conversation before. No one will *ever* convince Gerald the Troll that he is mostly incorrect in his blatherings. I happen to poke him now and then when his claims are over-the-top incorrect. If this somehow bothers you so much, you are welcome to just plonk me so you never have to see me make a fool of myself again.

On the other hand, perhaps I will increase my rate of negative responses to Gerald's astronomical fantasies, and you can continue to berate me for it, and after a while I will become the puppeteer and you will become Paul's Puppet. Works for me.

If people only responded to actual astronomy posts on this forum, there would be almost no responses at all. I'm just doing my part to help keep it active...

By the way, I like your latest photo of the North America Nebula and its neighboring Pelican Nebula. They happen to be the subject of my own very first (and last!) astrophotograph when I mounted my trusty Pentax MX on my brand-new Celestron C8 in 1974, shooting Ektachrome. The wide-angle picture came out, sorta, and one could recognize the 2 nebulae, but I never took another picture, I would rather see stuff in real time, naked-eye, which is still the case today.

\Paul A
  #7  
Old October 17th 18, 07:47 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default The subculture that obscured genuine astronomy

I have to shake my head sometimes but no further comment is necessary about that pair however Paul should know better as he had so much trouble previously with images showing Venus to the left and right of the Sun as an evening and morning appearance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtV0PV9MF88

That video comment was useful as it begins by pointing out that the only websites relating to direct/retrogrades of Venus and Mercury are astrological websites but failed to mention that there are any amount of websites like APOD showing the resolution for the slower moving planets. This is where the actual loops or direct/retrogrades of Venus and Mercury come in.

https://www.universetoday.com/wp-con...Dec27-2013.jpg

That image contains far more information than usual but the added dimension are the background stars, the central Sun and how those stars transition from left to right or from an evening to morning appearance due solely to the orbital motion of the Earth.

There is no theorem/theory, it is not like solving a crossword puzzle, a sudoko puzzle or an algebra puzzle - it is using normal judgments of motion by ignoring the daily rotational element of the Earth's motion and focusing on long term orbital motions of the planets, including our home planet, with the Sun at the centre of these motions.

I wouldn't care to deal with people who can be bullied into silence as the nuisance is just that - a nuisance, nothing more or less.









  #8  
Old October 17th 18, 03:09 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Davoud[_1_]
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Default The subculture that obscured genuine astronomy

Davoud:
Who's the bigger fool ‹ the puppeteer or the puppet? I would argue its
you, Kelleher's puppet.


palsing:
On the other hand, perhaps I will increase my rate of negative responses to
Gerald's astronomical fantasies, and you can continue to berate me for it,
and after a while I will become the puppeteer and you will become Paul's
Puppet. Works for me.


Your logic appears sound to me. I will act on it so that it will no
longer work for you. Do you understand that it is very unlikely that
Kelleher reads your responses? Trolls are hit-and-run. That leaves you
****ing into the wind. At least you /read/ my response!

By the way, I like your latest photo of the North America Nebula and its
neighboring Pelican Nebula. They happen to be the subject of my own very
first (and last!) astrophotograph when I mounted my trusty Pentax MX on my
brand-new Celestron C8 in 1974, shooting Ektachrome. The wide-angle picture
came out, sorta, and one could recognize the 2 nebulae, but I never took
another picture, I would rather see stuff in real time, naked-eye, which is still the case today.


This is a highly personal choice, not subject to criticism. But what do
NGC 7000 and IC 5070and myriad other objects look like to the naked
eye? To me, nothing. I have macular degeneration, which severely limits
my ability to distinguish low-contrast objects. But I can still use a
MacBook Pro without difficulty and astrophotography is the route for
me.

--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
  #9  
Old October 17th 18, 03:48 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,382
Default The subculture that obscured genuine astronomy

I am indifferent about old boys on their way to the grave without appreciating proof of the Earth's orbital motion by using the transition of stars from an evening to morning appearance (from left to right of the central Sun) nor how we see the faster moving planets with smaller orbital circumferences and their direct/retrograde motions depending on whether they are moving in front of the Sun or behind the Sun -

https://www.universetoday.com/wp-con...Dec27-2013.jpg

People are welcome to dispute the affirmation or even support it as one person did by pointing out how Jupiter's satellites run a circuit of their parent planet in much the same way we see Venus move around our parent star -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqZEgoJasPQ


What instructor wouldn't show their students how we see the faster moving inner planets move and how the orbital motion is accounted for !. This is how it is done .





 




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