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#21
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Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica
Al Jackson wrote:
More on this. It seems von Braun mentioned a piloted A9 in his Army Ordnance report in 1945, most of which was republished in: "Survey of Development of Liquid Rockets in Germany and Their Future Prospects," Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, Vol. 10, No. 2, Mar. 1951, pp. 75-80. Oh, there was a manned A9 studied; it just wasn't the delta-winged one as the upper stage of the A10, but the swept-wing fly alone variant with the ramjet hanging off the bottom (the one shown in the V Missiles book) The intention was to make it into a super high altitude and speed reconnaissance aircraft; the Luftwaffe looked it over....and told von Braun that- as he claimed- something flying at over a hundred thousand feet and over Mach 3 would be immune from interception...but something flying a forty thousand feet at 500 mph would also be immune from interception, and a hell of a lot easier to build; and the Arado Ar-234C four-engined derivative of the Ar-234 jet reconnaissance bomber could do just that. But the rocket/ramjet A9 became the basis for the North American project NA-704; which was basically an unmanned rocket/ramjet A9 converted to a canard configuration, and with a ramjet on both the upper and lower tail fin- three of these were built, but none were flown... then North American revised the design to put the rocket motor and its propellants into a separate booster for the missile (another German idea, for a missile called "The Horse And Rider") and the Navaho missile came into being (there is a detailed cutaway of the NA-704 in G. Harry Stine's "ICBM" book). Pat |
#22
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Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica
Pat Flannery wrote:
Oh, there was a manned A9 studied; it just wasn't the delta-winged one as the upper stage of the A10, but the swept-wing fly alone variant with the ramjet hanging off the bottom (the one shown in the V Missiles book) The intention was to make it into a super high altitude and speed reconnaissance aircraft Errr... I was with you up to the last two words. The references I've got, including the 1946 transript of the von Braun debriefing, call it nothing more than an early X-15... no military potential at all. into a separate booster for the missile (another German idea, for a missile called "The Horse And Rider") Never heard of that one. References? (there is a detailed cutaway of the NA-704 in G. Harry Stine's "ICBM" book). Is there? There isn't one in *my* copy. But then, I've got the full-rez scan that this http://www.up-ship.com/Stuff/navajosmall.jpg was made from (at 15% scale), so there. :P -- Scott Lowther, Engineer Remove the obvious (capitalized) anti-spam gibberish from the reply-to e-mail address |
#23
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Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica
Scott Lowther wrote:
Errr... I was with you up to the last two words. The references I've got, including the 1946 transript of the von Braun debriefing, call it nothing more than an early X-15... no military potential at all. Well, it says that on Encyclopedia Astronautica: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/a6.htm ....and we all know that THE SITE is infallible as a source of information; just because the site still lists Cassini as presently en route to Venus http://www.astronautix.com/craft/cassini.htm, this shouldn't reflect on the A6/A9 stuff... into a separate booster for the missile (another German idea, for a missile called "The Horse And Rider") Never heard of that one. References? And all the books that got put back on the shelf come right back off again....and will try to track down a reference for it. I'll also put the question up on sci.space.history, so that Henry Spencer can tell us about it in detail. I've read about it in numerous places- generally in regard to the postwar Soviet program; but have never been able to track down even a sketch of the damned thing*- it was supposed to be an A4 with a ramjet driven missile stuck on the side Navaho-style (or possibly on top- this is one of the things that the expatriate Germans worked on in the Soviet Union after the war as a follow-on to the the Peenemunde work on the concept; this might be called the father of the Soviet EKR missile design http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/g3.htm http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/ekr.htm ) (there is a detailed cutaway of the NA-704 in G. Harry Stine's "ICBM" book). Is there? There isn't one in *my* copy. Whoops, wrong book! Try page 89 of "The X-Planes" by Jay Miller 1988 edition (I don't have the updated edition, but it's under the X-10 section in the edition I have.) But then, I've got the full-rez scan that this http://www.up-ship.com/Stuff/navajosmall.jpg was made from (at 15% scale), so there. THANK YOU! That is a very slick illustration of it. Does it look to you like it uses a separate fuel for the ramjets, or if the rocket fuel is also used for fueling the jet engines? It's somewhat difficult to determine if has two or three propellant tanks...lot of the Bomarc in that design, isn't there? Pat *Actually, I have a side and top-view painting of it...and I treat those paintings with every bit as much trust as I treat the Nazi Flying Saucer cutaways, even though they're not by the Boys From Barcelona. It's in the book book "Hitler's Siegswaffen, Band 2- Star Wars 1947" along with my used-without-permission drawing of the hypothetical German atomic bomb from the Luft 46 site (downloaded from the web in such a way that the parts identification doesn't line up with the writing next to it), the Stuka armed with the atomic bomb (so, you pull out of the dive as the bomb releases at around 200 feet, and then...) and the type XXI submarine with the Golf class conning tower on it- bet you didn't know that the German's even had a plan for an SLBM missile sub in World War II, did you? Vell, Schweinhund, der are HUNDREDS of secret Reich projects you Americans knew nothing about! Velcro was originally called "Der Grossekleinenhooken"! Duct Tape was originally known as "Uberstickenstuffentappen"! Did you ever see a scented urinal cake prior to 1946? NEIN! IT VAS ANOTHER STOLEN TRIUMPH OF DER GERMAN ENGINEERING! ....and frankly, I've never had the sick urge to look up what exactly "Der Reprassentant des Haigerloch Atombomben-Museums auBerte gegennuber dem amerikanischem Forscher Flannery, daB, obwohl in Haigerloch keine Atombehalter gefunden wurden, dies nicht bedeutet, daB sie nicht existieten. Die suche geht also weiter!" in the book translates to; but I think this could well be something regarding the torch-bearing mob from Haigerloch that showed up at the castle shortly after (the since revised) Part 1 of the Luft 46 article went up on the web; and I was informed that for the third time in 20 years their desperately needed tourist industry was going to by annihilated by spurious concerns over plutonium contamination. Even as I write, babies go without milk in Haigerloch; I think this is one of those bat-wings and barbed tail things at death; I'll say hello to General Kammler for everybody. Haigerloch is safe- there is no plutonium lying about....there is that vampire that lives in the vicinity, but if you confine your tourism to the daylight hours, and eat garlic at every meal, you should be perfectly safe. |
#24
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Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica
Scott Lowther wrote:
I thought they were supposed to be in Spain. Nope. That would have required a conquest of Spain... certainly the Nazis thought they could do it, but one more headache. The A-9/10 actually had some launch sites under construction in France, IIRC. Okay, nothing on the "Horse and Rider" yet; but after several hours of digging around in my books; I find a photographic reproduction of a notebook page on graph paper from the A9/A10 project on page 101 of Ernst Klee and Otto Merk's "The Birth Of The Missile" E.P Dutton & Co. Inc.,1965 (introduction by WvB- so I think we can assume that it gets the seal of approval) which has the distance and trajectory figures for A9/A10 launches from Ouessant, France (5 degrees West; 48.45 degrees North) and Cape da Roca, Portugal (so I was at least close) (9.45 degrees West; 37.75 degrees North) to New York City, Pittsburgh, and Washington D.C.- the document has a number on it: "2/1-2"- but whether this is a date, or a file number I don't know. (the photo-reproduction of the drawing of the six thrust chamber A10 motor on page 100 has "Archiv Nr..................Seite 69/6" on it, with the "69/6" handwritten in.... as the "2/1-2" is also). Pat |
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Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica
Scott Lowther wrote in message ...
Al Jackson wrote: Scott Lowther wrote in message ... P.S. Sadly, Mark Wade is continuing the mythology that the A-9/A-10 ICBM was to be manned. Bah! I am not so sure of that! Check out http://www.luftarchiv.de/ search on A9 and you will see several versions of a piloted A9, but will have to be able to read German. My German is not that good so I cannot tell if there is historical documents to back this up, on that page. Tho there is a drawing of that page that looks as if it came from some archive! There is a pen-and-ink B&W sketch of the research manned A-9, of unknown provenance, and color art done by Miranda in the 1990's. Not exactly conclusive. As Pat mentioned, Miranda also has some nice artwork of German flying saucers... You know , I think when I was a kid I saw a drawing of the piloted A9 in Rockets, Jets, Guided Missiles and Spaceships (1951), Fletcher Pratt , the artwork was by Jack Coggins. Alas , I lost my copy many many years ago, but might be mis-remembering?! |
#26
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Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica
Pat Flannery wrote in message ...
Al Jackson wrote: But no on the A11. Dieter Hoelsken, documents this in V- Missiles of the Third Reich*, monogram Aviation Publications, 1994. There is a document at the Bundesarchiv (Military) dated 1943!, that describes the A11, in fact a theoretical model for a A9/A10/A11 was calculated. See the note of page 256 of Hoelsken's book, and footnote 52. In the Monogram Books edition, it's on page 265 and footnote #52. By the by , Hoelsken publishes a drawing of the piloted A9 on page 264 of V- Missiles of the Third Reich, but gives no historical documentation. It's the only known wartime drawing of the manned A-9 variant; it was supposed to be used as a reconnaissance machine. It's also shown in G.Harry Stine's "ICBM" book. So it really is from German WWII documents? Hoelsken, who is so carefull, does not , I think give a footnote to document it. By the by in the English translation of Dornbergers "V2 -- Der Schuss ins Weltall" (Bechtle Verlag 1952) which I never owned, there was a beautiful 'slick paper' plate drawing of the A9/A10, looked like a an airbursh. I guess it came from Dornbergers own collection. Alas, the German edition was reprinted recently in paper back, I bought a copy, but the drawing is repoduced on plain paper, ack! The 1952 book is a 'rare-book' right now. |
#27
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Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica
Al Jackson wrote:
You know , I think when I was a kid I saw a drawing of the piloted A9 in Rockets, Jets, Guided Missiles and Spaceships (1951), Fletcher Pratt , the artwork was by Jack Coggins. Yup. There is such a sketch. It's basically the manned A-9 art that's floating around, but without the ramjet underneath. -- Scott Lowther, Engineer Remove the obvious (capitalized) anti-spam gibberish from the reply-to e-mail address |
#28
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Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica
Pat Flannery wrote:
Well, it says that on Encyclopedia Astronautica: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/a6.htm Urk. That is NOT the A-6. It's yet another Miranda/Mercado invention. Whoops, wrong book! Try page 89 of "The X-Planes" by Jay Miller 1988 edition (I don't have the updated edition, but it's under the X-10 section in the edition I have.) Yup, it's there in the new edition as well. But then, I've got the full-rez scan that this http://www.up-ship.com/Stuff/navajosmall.jpg was made from (at 15% scale), so there. THANK YOU! That is a very slick illustration of it. Does it look to you like it uses a separate fuel for the ramjets, or if the rocket fuel is also used for fueling the jet engines? It has three tanks: a forward LOX tank, a mid "JP-X" tank and an aft alcohol tank, sharing a bulkhead with the JP-X tank. The alcohol was used for the V-2 derived rocket engine, the JP-X for the ramjets. On the really very nice and large inboard profile I got of the NA-704, the tanks are called out explicitly... but the rocket engine has been white-outted. Weird. The artwork all showed somethign very V-2esque, and the V-2 engine was hardly a State Secret by that point; no idea what the deal was. *Actually, I have a side and top-view painting of it...and I treat those paintings with every bit as much trust as I treat the Nazi Flying Saucer cutaways, even though they're not by the Boys From Barcelona. It's in the book book "Hitler's Siegswaffen, Band 2- Star Wars 1947" Never heard of that particular book book. It sounds like a winner, though. Low production value? -- Scott Lowther, Engineer Remove the obvious (capitalized) anti-spam gibberish from the reply-to e-mail address |
#29
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Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica
Scott Lowther wrote:
It's in the book book "Hitler's Siegswaffen, Band 2- Star Wars 1947" Never heard of that particular book book. It sounds like a winner, though. Low production value? All you have to do is photocopy Wright-Patterson AFB's copy of "Rocket Drive For Long-range Bombers" by Eugen Sanger and Irene Brendt, and send it to the author- one Friedrich George (not his real name; his real name is....A STATE SECRET!) and you too may receive free autographed copies of all of his books. Which are very nicely printed and bound by the way, and have lots of color pages; the only peculiarity being that the writing on the spine is 180 degrees reversed from the way it is on American books. (i.e. when sitting with the front cover title upright on the bookshelf, the spine writing reads bottom-to-top.) The reunited Germany is busy reinventing its past; they, not we, came up with that Fat Man bomb...we stole it from them, as is plainly obvious from the green letter "G" on it's tail fin assembly...a marking used only by German aircraft! .......Mein Fuhrer...I CAN VALK! Pat |
#30
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Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica
Pat Flannery wrote:
into a separate booster for the missile (another German idea, for a missile called "The Horse And Rider") I've read about it in numerous places- generally in regard to the postwar Soviet program; but have never been able to track down even a sketch of the damned thing*- it was supposed to be an A4 with a ramjet driven missile stuck on the side Navaho-style (or possibly on top- I suspect you're thinking of this: http://www.geocities.com/unicraftmodels/germ/v4/v4.htm You can probably guess what I think the accuracy of this is. -- Scott Lowther, Engineer Remove the obvious (capitalized) anti-spam gibberish from the reply-to e-mail address |
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