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#11
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Hi Painius The doppler effect for sound needs the vibration of air.
Space does not vibrate. Still there is a sameness (for sure) Coming and going from the rest receiver creates in sound,and light shorter(coming),and longer(going) wave lengths. It is the answer to how photons waves change their length in space that my theory answers. It also gives a structure to photon waves. Bert |
#12
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Painius wrote:
What i have not figured out yet is how we can make the seemingly huge assumption that light waves will behave in this manner similar to sound waves. Any ideas? I don't think it's an assumption at all, but a consequence (or prediction, if you like) of the fundamental theories concerned, like Maxwell's. The effect is only roughly similar to that for sound, mainly in that sound is a longitudinal pressure wave propagating through a medium, while EM radiation is a transverse wave that needs no medium for transmission -- or if there is such a "lumeniferous ether" its properties are such that it always has the same velocity as both the source and the receiver, rather hard to picture in the general case! Imagine two cars, A & B, facing each other on a highway; A is sounding its horn and has its headlights on. If A and B are approaching each other, each at 50 km/h, then B stops while A's speed increases to 100 km/h, the sonic Doppler effect heard by B's driver will change slightly, the pitch rising between the first and second phases, but the (tiny) blue-shift he sees in the light emitted by A's headlights will remain constant throughout, despite the change in their 'absolute' speeds. If A were then to stop while B approaches at 100 km/h, the blue-shift of the headlights would still remain the same to B's driver but he would hear the pitch of the horn becoming even higher. -- Odysseus |
#13
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I gave it a thought that my eye lens might be "yellowed". Then again, I
used to remember that the sun looked like a tangstan light bulb. Today, the tangstan light bulb is the same color as it used to be, but the sun is whitter! Plus, I just had an eye exam 3 month ago, which showed my eyes are in perfect health. The models we have for the sun or any star, only takes into acoount the gravty and heat generated by nuclear energy. It does not take into account many other known and unkown phenomena, such as electric charging or magnetic forces present on that star. So we roughly know that the sun will end up red and large, but before it gets there it could go through many types of transiant states not known to us. For eample a simple model of earth suggest that it rotated around itself and around the sun. However, we know the earth is more complicated than that. For example shifting of continants, earth's interaction with moon causing ebb and flow of the occw\eans, its maganetic pole, its electric charge, its balck body radiation as a function of the atmospheric conditaion, etc. In my opinion the only way to resolve this question is to make a careful measurement. I have seen some papers written for solar cells in the 70s and 80s that have measured the sun's radiation spectrum. We could do another measurement and compare the results. Further more, since the sun is very important for us, we really should monitor it more carefully. Of course, we can not do a thing about these changes for forseeable future, but at least we can plan to deal with it in the earth. Regards, Babak "Bob Weber" wrote in message news:al_Ya.102082$uu5.15119@sccrnsc04... I had cataract surgery several years ago. With the new plastic lens, suddenly white is white! Bob "David Knisely" wrote in message ... No, the sun has not changed color significantly. It will become somewhat redder in the distant future, but not over the period of a lifetime. To me, it looks about the same as it did as a child, although the yellowing of the eye's lens over time may cause a change in the perception of the color. Clear skies to you. -- David W. Knisely Prairie Astronomy Club: http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org Hyde Memorial Observatory: http://www.hydeobservatory.info/ ********************************************** * Attend the 10th Annual NEBRASKA STAR PARTY * * July 27-Aug. 1st, 2003, Merritt Reservoir * * http://www.NebraskaStarParty.org * ********************************************** |
#14
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"Benoit Morrissette" wrote...
in message ... "Painius" wrote: "G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote in message... ... Ho Painius What reason is given for the photons waves getting shorter coming towards us,and longer going away from us. I have an idea why this is reality for light. Bert Similar to the Doppler effect for sound, Bert . . . . . . What i have not figured out yet is how we can make the seemingly huge assumption that light waves will behave in this manner similar to sound waves. Any ideas? Because waves behaves like waves... In the beginning, Isaac proved that light travels as waves. Problem is that Albert Einstein proved that light travels as photons. They cannot both be right, no? Yes, they are, thanks to "mind boggling" quantum dynamic theory... Sometimes, light behave like waves and other times it behave like photons, just make sure you don't mix the two together at the same time! BTW, i am not sure but i think it is Doppler who got the idea for light waves and Fizeau who got it for sound waves. Benoît Morrissette Thanks, Benoît! Actually, Christian Doppler (1803-1853) *did* get the idea... for sound *and* for light, yet it was Armand Fizeau (1819 - 1896) who proved Christian Doppler's theory as it applied to light waves. Here is the story in a nutshell from one of many similar websites... Christian Doppler: The Austrian physicist who developed the famous "Doppler Effect." Christian Doppler was an Austrian physicist famous for devising the "Doppler Effect." Doppler theorized that sound waves from a moving source would be compressed or expanded, or that the frequency would change. The Doppler Effect was used to confirm the Universe was expanding, also serving an important role in the world of astronomy. In 1842, Doppler made the equation about frequency and relative movement of sound source and observer. Doppler conducted a unique experiment to prove his theories. For two days, Doppler had a train pull repeatedly at different speeds a freight car with trumpeters playing on top of it. He then had a musician capable of understanding the differences in sounds record the height of the notes played as the train moved closer or further away. This effect proved Doppler's theory superbly. Doppler later tried to prove that his theory also applied to light but was unable to fulfill his goal. Instead, another scientist, Fizeau, generalized Doppler's work and discovered that the Doppler Effect also applied to light. This discovery contributed greatly to proving the Universe was expanding and allowed Doppler's work to have an important influence on astronomical studies. ------------------------------------------------------- Now, Benoît... just to say that Fizeau was right simply because "waves behave like waves" doesn't seem to me to be enough of an explanation. I like reading your articles because you usually take the time to make things as clear as possible. So could you explain how transverse radiation (light, etc.) waves can be proved to behave just like longitudinal sound waves? Especially in light of what Odysseus and Bert had to say? Thanks in advance for your help! happy days and... starry starry nights! -- A smidgeon of fear and a sprinkle of strife And a whole lotta love till your cold... Most everyone here wants to live a long life, Ah! but nobody wants to get old. Paine Ellsworth |
#15
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Hi Painius Well sound waves,and water waves go together. It is
possible Newton,and Einstien were both right. It takes a particle to go through space without a medium,and every particle carries a wave with it. The similarity(sameness) about waves and cords(strings) are the longer the cord the lower the note. I would think people that play the harp would like the string theory. Bert |
#16
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On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:28:21 GMT, "Painius" wrote:
"Benoit Morrissette" wrote... in message ... "Painius" wrote: "G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote in message... ... Ho Painius What reason is given for the photons waves getting shorter coming towards us,and longer going away from us. I have an idea why this is reality for light. Bert Similar to the Doppler effect for sound, Bert . . . . . . What i have not figured out yet is how we can make the seemingly huge assumption that light waves will behave in this manner similar to sound waves. Any ideas? Because waves behaves like waves... In the beginning, Isaac proved that light travels as waves. Problem is that Albert Einstein proved that light travels as photons. They cannot both be right, no? Yes, they are, thanks to "mind boggling" quantum dynamic theory... Sometimes, light behave like waves and other times it behave like photons, just make sure you don't mix the two together at the same time! BTW, i am not sure but i think it is Doppler who got the idea for light waves and Fizeau who got it for sound waves. Benoît Morrissette Thanks, Benoît! Actually, Christian Doppler (1803-1853) *did* get the idea... for sound *and* for light, yet it was Armand Fizeau (1819 - 1896) who proved Christian Doppler's theory as it applied to light waves. Here is the story in a nutshell from one of many similar websites... Christian Doppler: The Austrian physicist who developed the famous "Doppler Effect." Christian Doppler was an Austrian physicist famous for devising the "Doppler Effect." Doppler theorized that sound waves from a moving source would be compressed or expanded, or that the frequency would change. The Doppler Effect was used to confirm the Universe was expanding, also serving an important role in the world of astronomy. In 1842, Doppler made the equation about frequency and relative movement of sound source and observer. Doppler conducted a unique experiment to prove his theories. For two days, Doppler had a train pull repeatedly at different speeds a freight car with trumpeters playing on top of it. He then had a musician capable of understanding the differences in sounds record the height of the notes played as the train moved closer or further away. This effect proved Doppler's theory superbly. Doppler later tried to prove that his theory also applied to light but was unable to fulfill his goal. Instead, another scientist, Fizeau, generalized Doppler's work and discovered that the Doppler Effect also applied to light. This discovery contributed greatly to proving the Universe was expanding and allowed Doppler's work to have an important influence on astronomical studies. ------------------------------------------------------- Now, Benoît... just to say that Fizeau was right simply because "waves behave like waves" doesn't seem to me to be enough of an explanation. I like reading your articles because you usually take the time to make things as clear as possible. So could you explain how transverse radiation (light, etc.) waves can be proved to behave just like longitudinal sound waves? Especially in light of what Odysseus and Bert had to say? Thanks in advance for your help! happy days and... starry starry nights! Unfortunatly, i am not a quantum physicist so i cannot go further than "waves behaves like waves"... maybe if we can find the original paper of Fizeau? One thing i am sure of: we must always be very carefull when we talk about the dual nature (wave-particle) of light because then we are talking about a mathematical MODEL, not about light itself. We don't know what light is. No ones knows. We will never knows. All what we have is a model that describes adequately all the observations we have so far on the behaviour of light. As new observations will come by, new models will be built. We are currently on the verge a a new era in astrophysic: the discovery of dark energy. Here we have observations that cannot be explained by ANY theory we have so far. This is the case where a new model of gravitation will have to be conceived. Some people says that Einstein is right, others says he is wrong. The real scientist says: I do not know how gravitation works, but it works LIKE this (so far). Now, what do we do with dark energy? First, get more observations, a lot more! Second, create a new model or modify an old one to describe these new observations. An absolute must for this new model to be accepted by the scientific community: it must not invalidate any previous observations! Just like relativity: at low mass low speed, it gives exactly the same results than newtonian law of gravitation. Remember: a model do not explain how the universe works, it just describe it. For the short answer: i cannot prove that transverse light waves behave like longitudinal sound waves. I don't even know if waves exists really after all... Benoît Morrissette |
#17
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"Benoit Morrissette" wrote in message
... In the beginning, Isaac proved that light travels as waves. "As indicated earlier, Newton and his followers argued vehmently with Huygens and his followers over the nature of light. Newton subscribed to a "corpuscular" theory, where he envisioned light as small compact bodies of energy. Huygens focussed on the wave like nature and developed that theory." http://www.chembio.uoguelph.ca/educm...las/newton.htm |
#18
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Painius asked Benoit,
So could you explain how transverse radiation (light, etc.) waves can be proved to behave just like longitudinal sound waves? Well, police radar uses reflected/ Dopplered EM radiation to measure speed. Whether a wave is transverse or longitudinal is a moot point as far as its being stretched/ compressed by the Doppler effect. oc To reply by e-mail please use anti-spam address: oldcoot88atwebtv.net Change 'at' to@ |
#19
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"Bill Sheppard" wrote in message...
... Painius asked Benoit, So could you explain how transverse radiation (light, etc.) waves can be proved to behave just like longitudinal sound waves? Well, police radar uses reflected/ Dopplered EM radiation to measure speed. Whether a wave is transverse or longitudinal is a moot point as far as its being stretched/ compressed by the Doppler effect. oc To reply by e-mail please use anti-spam address: oldcoot88atwebtv.net Change 'at' to@ 'Lo Bill -- I believe that police radar operates on a principle that has to do with the "radar mile." I know a little about this because i worked on TACANs in the military. It's a very different principle than Doppler's effect, which does not require wave reflections. And it still does not explain how light waves coming from light sources that are moving toward us are scrunched together, or how such waves from sources that are moving away from us are stretched apart. Nor does it explain how this can be found by actually measuring the shift of spectral lines toward the red or blue end of the visual spectrum. Morrissette's right... it would definitely help if someone could come up with Fizeau's paper. I'll keep looking. happy days and... starry starry nights! -- A smidgeon of fear and a sprinkle of strife And a whole lotta love till your cold... Most everyone here wants to live a long life, Ah! but nobody wants to get old. Paine Ellsworth |
#20
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P.S. to Painius-
The 'radar mile' is simply the time it takes for a pulse, propagating at c, to travel one mile (1.6 km) and return to the receiver. It applies to all radars, not just the Doppler-based police speed-trap units. A web search under 'radar mile' will turn up some good hits. To reply by e-mail please use anti-spam address: oldcoot88atwebtv.net Change 'at' to@ |
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