Can NASA Perform the Following Today?

Would NASA be able to perform the following today?:

Send a manned orbiter into space then land them (by rocket descent, parachute,
air-cushion or whatever means are at our disposal, today) on some barren field
in Nevada, then have them, without the aid of anything other than what was
included in their modules, get back into orbit.

How likely are you to be blessed with the same thundering sights and sounds as
witnessed at Cape Canaveral, had you been waiting patiently for the arrival and
departure of this crew in this remote region in the Nevada desert?

On 19 Jul 2003 19:50:26 GMT, (Um Zutu) wrote:


Would NASA be able to perform the following today?:

Send a manned orbiter into space then land them (by rocket descent, parachute,
air-cushion or whatever means are at our disposal, today) on some barren field
in Nevada,

Right now NASA cannot even do the first part, let alone the MUCH more
difficult second part.

Mike Borgelt



then have them, without the aid of anything other than what was
included in their modules, get back into orbit.

How likely are you to be blessed with the same thundering sights and sounds as
witnessed at Cape Canaveral, had you been waiting patiently for the arrival and
departure of this crew in this remote region in the Nevada desert?

(Um Zutu) wrote in message ...
Would NASA be able to perform the following today?:

Send a manned orbiter into space then land them (by rocket descent, parachute,
air-cushion or whatever means are at our disposal, today) on some barren field
in Nevada, then have them, without the aid of anything other than what was
included in their modules, get back into orbit.

How likely are you to be blessed with the same thundering sights and sounds as
witnessed at Cape Canaveral, had you been waiting patiently for the arrival and
departure of this crew in this remote region in the Nevada desert?

Far as I know, NASA (nor anyone else) has never been capable of this.
Part of it is merely that there's never been a reason to do it and
part of it is an incredible expense.

AFAIK, no rocket capable of orbit on Earth is simple enough that it
could be assembled and launched in the field (even with extensive
reengineering IMHO). Even if it were, the expenses are likely to be
enormous. For example, an Atlas V weighing more than 500,000 kg, can
lift 12,500 kg to LEO. That's an efficiency of around 2%. Ie, you have
to lauch 50kg to get 1 kg in orbit. Now imagine that you have a
perfect way of bring that mass back to Earth. You need to launch 100kg
(ie, just the astronaut on a 1-way trip back) into space. That means
that you need a 5000kg rocket (assuming Atlas V efficiency). Ie, you
need to launch at least 2500 kg on the first trip to launch 1 kg on
the second trip. In theory you could do it since a rocket is just mass
like people and other stuff.


Karl Hallowell

Um Zutu wrote:

Would NASA be able to perform the following today?:

No.
Send a manned orbiter into space then land them (by rocket descent, parachute,
air-cushion or whatever means are at our disposal, today) on some barren field
in Nevada, then have them, without the aid of anything other than what was
included in their modules, get back into orbit.

How likely are you to be blessed with the same thundering sights and sounds as
witnessed at Cape Canaveral, had you been waiting patiently for the arrival and
departure of this crew in this remote region in the Nevada desert?

As the only way back to orbit is with large rockets, then yes.
You need at least fuel tankers, unless you are willing to use
solar/... to generate fuel from water condensed from the air.


--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
"Give a man a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set him on fire, and he's warm
for the rest of his life" -- Terry Pratchett-Jingo

"Um Zutu" wrote in message
...

Would NASA be able to perform the following today?:

Send a manned orbiter into space then land them (by rocket descent,
parachute,
air-cushion or whatever means are at our disposal, today) on some barren
field
in Nevada, then have them, without the aid of anything other than what was
included in their modules, get back into orbit.

Currently: no. What you're describing is a SSTO vehicle, which may or may
not be doable at our current technological level.


How likely are you to be blessed with the same thundering sights and
sounds as
witnessed at Cape Canaveral, had you been waiting patiently for the
arrival and
departure of this crew in this remote region in the Nevada desert?

Cape Canaveral has been chosen because a) its proximity to the Equator and
b) because of safety issues (a rocket which explodes in mid-air will fall
harmlessly into the Atlantic Ocean. My guess is that until safety issues
have been solved, we'll see launches continueing from coastal, southernly
located sites.

(Um Zutu) wrote in message ...
Would NASA be able to perform the following today?:

Send a manned orbiter into space then land them (by rocket descent, parachute,
air-cushion or whatever means are at our disposal, today) on some barren field
in Nevada, then have them, without the aid of anything other than what was
included in their modules, get back into orbit.

This is exactly the problem with a Mars landing with a crew, and has been
studied extensively for Mars. On Earth it's not very useful, but it's the
same problem. It can be done in theory, but we are not close in practice.
Assuming the astronauts are not going to build the return rocket, you need
to send at least the return rocket itself, and either the fuel for the
rocket or enough machinery to make the fuel from local materials.

The main problem is one of mass. You would need to land a lot of weight
(more than we can currently do) in the desert to make this possible.
The smallest manned orbit launcher (Atlas for Mercury) massed about
141,000 kg when loaded with fuel. One of the biggest rocket ever built
(the Saturn V) could put about 100,000 kg into orbit. It might be lighter
to send fuel making machines instead of fuel, but it would require a detailed
design to show this (and you need a power source, which is not light either).

How likely are you to be blessed with the same thundering sights and sounds as
witnessed at Cape Canaveral, had you been waiting patiently for the arrival and
departure of this crew in this remote region in the Nevada desert?

Using any current technology, the sights and sounds would be exactly the same
as launching a medium size rocket from Cape Canaveral.

Lou Scheffer

Um Zutu wrote:

Would NASA be able to perform the following today?:

Send a manned orbiter into space then land them (by rocket descent, parachute,
air-cushion or whatever means are at our disposal, today) on some barren field
in Nevada, then have them, without the aid of anything other than what was
included in their modules, get back into orbit.

If you're talking about the Moon, it's pretty much been done....

(Um Zutu) wrote in
:


Would NASA be able to perform the following today?:

Send a manned orbiter into space then land them (by rocket descent,
parachute, air-cushion or whatever means are at our disposal, today)
on some barren field in Nevada, then have them, without the aid of
anything other than what was included in their modules, get back into
orbit.

If I interpret you correctly (essentially, a single-stage-to-orbit vehicle
that can make two flights *without* refueling), no, NASA can't, nor can
anyone else.

--
JRF

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Thanks for all your replies, guys.

"Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message ...
"Um Zutu" wrote:
Would NASA be able to perform the following today?:

Send a manned orbiter into space then land them (by rocket descent, parachute,
air-cushion or whatever means are at our disposal, today) on some barren field
in Nevada, then have them, without the aid of anything other than what was
included in their modules, get back into orbit.

Very unlikely. This is a similar scenario as the "powered
decent" concept. Basically, you need 2x the delta V, and
that *squares* the mass ratio because the rocket equation
is exponential with regard to the ratio between delta V and
Isp.

But, it is possible to use more advanced systems with higher
Isp which would enable maintaining the overall mass ratio.



What I'm thinking is something along these lines. You
have a small-crew, maybe 2-3 people, SSTO which uses two
engines, a LOX/Kero "first stage" (even though it doesn't
discard the engine) which provides enough thrust to get
off the ground and a Hydrogen Nuclear Thermal Rocket
"second stage" (again, same thing) which provides the
majority of the Isp for getting to orbit.

Could it be done with Orion ? Is it possible at all to land Orion on Earth ?