Sooner or later some space debris will kill a person

laugh all you want NOW. lets not forget my prediction before columbia, were going to lose another shuttle and it will be a management screw up. Schedule pressure.you laughed at a shuttle stuck at station, later nasa planned for it

A one off earther getting hit with a piece of satellite debris will be realtively easy to prove. With the dead person laying there, along with a sat debris including who it belonged too.

but we keep adding more sats, eventually the bad day will arrive and force nations to be more responsible.

but it will be harder if a small chunk of debris take out a commecial airliner. the difficulty will be finding space debris mixed in with airliner debris....

sooner or later this will occur, and force changes to everything launced into space to minimize future risks.

just as discarded exploding boosters forced changes to safety them after their job was done.

like venting all tanks of all pressure so they dont explode later.

the universal grapple would allow relocating satellites that didnt reach proper orbit, to be moved to where they belong.

failed sats that quit communicating culd be moved to graveyard orbits or deorbited over a ocean.

In article ,
says...

laugh all you want NOW. lets not forget my prediction before columbia, were going to lose another shuttle and it will be a management screw up. Schedule pressure.you laughed at a shuttle stuck at station, later nasa planned for it

A one off earther getting hit with a piece of satellite debris will be realtively easy to prove. With the dead person laying there, along with a sat debris including who it belonged too.

but we keep adding more sats, eventually the bad day will arrive and force nations to be more responsible.

but it will be harder if a small chunk of debris take out a commecial airliner. the difficulty will be finding space debris mixed in with airliner debris....

sooner or later this will occur, and force changes to everything launced into space to minimize future risks.

just as discarded exploding boosters forced changes to safety them after their job was done.

like venting all tanks of all pressure so they dont explode later.

the universal grapple would allow relocating satellites that didnt reach proper orbit, to be moved to where they belong.

failed sats that quit communicating culd be moved to graveyard orbits or deorbited over a ocean.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Still, that doesn't mean that
the clock is actually very useful.

You still don't have the first clue about orbital mechanics. You think
that a "universal grapple" is some sort of panacea, but it's not. The
sort of delta-V's you are talking about are not trivial, especially
since you seem to be including moving around GEO comsats.

You seem to be living in the world of "Salvage 1", that really bad TV
show from the late 70's that featured a spaceship made in a junkyard,
whose "command module" was made from the mixer off a concrete truck
(yea, that's light). Despite the fact that the ship must have been
extremely heavy, it could fly all the way to the f-ing moon and back
without refueling! This happened in the very first episode so they
could salvage "space junk" that NASA left on the moon.

Considering your "ideas", you could have been the "technical expert" for
that show.

Here's a link to what is arguably the most "enlightening" information in
this thread:
The Vulture
http://www.tombsofkobol.com/tv/Salvage/s1-03.html

This must be what Bob envisions when he talks about moving satellites
around like it's "just another day at work" for the guys who would
really like to bring back this "space junk" since it's "so valuable".

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

On 11/4/2013 3:25 PM, Jeff Findley wrote:
You seem to be living in the world of "Salvage 1", that really bad TV
show from the late 70's that featured a spaceship made in a junkyard,
whose "command module" was made from the mixer off a concrete truck
(yea, that's light). Despite the fact that the ship must have been
extremely heavy, it could fly all the way to the f-ing moon and back
without refueling! This happened in the very first episode so they
could salvage "space junk" that NASA left on the moon.


I'm trying to figure out how I missed that one.
Maybe I was still too hungover from either Buck Rodgers in the 25th
Century or Battlestar Galactica (TOS).

Or maybe because it first aired just at the time I was starting my first
real job out of college....

There is an episode entitled Confederate Gold? So the Confederacy DID
master rocketry after all! Mythbusters WERE WRONG! So the Rebels are up
there on the dark side of the moon and interbreeding with the Nazis that
came nearly 80 years later right? Herr Marshall General Eustus P.
Beauregard von Schleiffen?

Sorry, having a Pat moment here....

Dave

you know or guess you dont there are companies planning on deploying vehicles to retrieve and relocate satellites, using a universal grapple or docking port.

there are even plans for one that can dock and refuel a sat in orbit that was never designed to be refueled

interest in ideas like this are higher since satellites have become more expensive

On 4/11/2013 6:40 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
bob haller wrote:

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n1311/02goce/

they say it wouldnt be a problem because the satellite, which will have small parts survive passes over the earths large land masses, but lots of oceans.

eventually a returning satellite or booster debris is going to do some real damage...

And eventually the Sun is going to turn into a red giant and fry us
all.


No it won't.

We'll already be gone (either extinct, or moved somewhere else) before
then. The gradual warming of the sun will render Earth uninhabitable
long before the sun leaves the main sequence. I think we have a billion
years, at most.

Sylvia.

On 4/11/2013 6:42 AM, bob haller wrote:
Perhaps many people if a chunk of space debris happens to impact a airliner.

What will be the effects of such a event if its verified space debris has caused the problem?


Is it a plausible event? The small stuff can't descend that low before
it burns up, and the larger stuff is tracked so that we have good idea
of when and where there is an impact risk. That is to say, during the
final day or so during which a piece can come down, we know, for each
place it could hit, fairly accurately when that would be. Aircraft can
just avoid the risk area at those times.

If anything, it's people on the ground who are in more danger. If, for
example, it became apparent that Washington was at risk of being hit,
there's little that could be done about it. You can't evacuate an entire
city in that sort of timescale, and even if you could, more people would
die from accidents in the process than could ever be killed by a single
piece of space debris impacting the ground.

Either way, it's a miniscule risk, and would remain so, even if it
happened once. Life isn't perfectly safe, and there better things to
spend money on than trying to mitigate something that would probably not
happen again in living memory.

Sylvia.

In article ,
says...

you know or guess you dont there are companies planning on deploying vehicles to retrieve and relocate satellites, using a universal grapple or docking port.

Bob, is that sentence English? WTF are you trying to say?

there are even plans for one that can dock and refuel a sat in orbit that was never designed to be refueled

"Plans" in aerospace are far more numerous than actual flying designs.
"Plans" for reusing old satellites are therefore numerous, but to date
there have been very few examples of satellites being repaired or
"rescued", and those to date have been performed either entirely
remotely (which isn't what you're talking about) or by astronauts in
suits.

We're not there yet. Try posting again when this happens "for real" and
the company doing it actually turns a profit on the mission. Until
then, I won't be impressed.

interest in ideas like this are higher since satellites have become more expensive

Of course, you have nothing to back up that assertion, do you? How
about a graph of satellite prices plotted against the year it was
launched? That would support your case. It's just a simple two column
spreadsheet displayed as a graph. My kids all learned how to do that in
their (required) computer class junior high school.

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

In article , nospam@
127.0.0.1 says...

On 11/4/2013 3:25 PM, Jeff Findley wrote:
You seem to be living in the world of "Salvage 1", that really bad TV
show from the late 70's that featured a spaceship made in a junkyard,
whose "command module" was made from the mixer off a concrete truck
(yea, that's light). Despite the fact that the ship must have been
extremely heavy, it could fly all the way to the f-ing moon and back
without refueling! This happened in the very first episode so they
could salvage "space junk" that NASA left on the moon.


I'm trying to figure out how I missed that one.
Maybe I was still too hungover from either Buck Rodgers in the 25th
Century or Battlestar Galactica (TOS).

Or maybe because it first aired just at the time I was starting my first
real job out of college....

You likely don't remember it because it was really, really, really bad.
Even if you saw the show, it's best forgotten. But the Internet has a
really good "memory", so there is still info "out there" about the show.
But to give you an idea how "popular" the show was, the IMDB page for
this show is pretty much a placeholder. It's got a list of the actors,
but that's it. No write-up, no pictures, no real details, other than
"it existed".

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

In article ,
ess says...

On 4/11/2013 6:42 AM, bob haller wrote:
Perhaps many people if a chunk of space debris happens to impact a airliner.

What will be the effects of such a event if its verified space debris has caused the problem?


Is it a plausible event? The small stuff can't descend that low before
it burns up, and the larger stuff is tracked so that we have good idea
of when and where there is an impact risk. That is to say, during the
final day or so during which a piece can come down, we know, for each
place it could hit, fairly accurately when that would be. Aircraft can
just avoid the risk area at those times.

It's hard to predict where something "uncontrolled" will come down,
especially if it's doing a "Skylab style" reentry where you can't quite
predict exactly what part of what (very low) orbit will finally bring it
down due to aerodynamic drag.

Still, the track record so far is very good, despite the number of
"uncontrolled" reentries to date. The fact is the earth is very, very
large compared to the size of the debris caused by an "uncontrolled"
reentry.

But Bob doesn't understand statistics anymore than he understands
orbital mechanics.

If anything, it's people on the ground who are in more danger. If, for
example, it became apparent that Washington was at risk of being hit,
there's little that could be done about it. You can't evacuate an entire
city in that sort of timescale, and even if you could, more people would
die from accidents in the process than could ever be killed by a single
piece of space debris impacting the ground.

Either way, it's a miniscule risk, and would remain so, even if it
happened once. Life isn't perfectly safe, and there better things to
spend money on than trying to mitigate something that would probably not
happen again in living memory.

Agreed. Each of us "could" worry that a piece of space junk will come
through the roof of our car and kill us. But, there are clearly many
more things which could kill us while driving that are far more likely,
so they ought to worry us even more. But even so, most of us aren't too
scared to get into a car and drive to work every day.

I drive to work every day in my '91 Crown Victoria, which has a very old
airbag design (only for the driver), no ABS, no traction control, no
stability control, no backup sensors/cameras, and etc. It's far more
"dangerous" than a newer car, but I keep driving it because the cost per
mile is far lower. I'm the type of cheapskate that drives their cars
until the cost/benefit ratio makes me get rid of it. Parts for that car
are so cheap (I do all the required repairs myself) that I hope to keep
driving it for at least another five years.

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

"bob haller" wrote in message
...

Perhaps many people if a chunk of space debris happens to impact a
airliner.

What will be the effects of such a event if its verified space debris has
caused the problem?



There will be a funeral and life for others will go on.

Put bluntly Bob, **** happens.




--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net