Retained LM ascent stage

Does anyone else recall an artist's concept, ca. 1970, showing the
first J-series mission (identified as Apollo 16 with Young, Mattingly
and Duke) executing their Trans-Earth EVA with the LM ascent stage
still attached? I have searched my clipping files and Googled, to no
avail.
Please don't tell me I just imagined it...

John Charles
Houston, Texas

(apologies if this is a repeat message--some difficulties with Google
Groups)

"John Charles" wrote in message
oups.com...
Does anyone else recall an artist's concept, ca. 1970, showing the
first J-series mission (identified as Apollo 16 with Young, Mattingly
and Duke) executing their Trans-Earth EVA with the LM ascent stage
still attached? I have searched my clipping files and Googled, to no
avail.
Please don't tell me I just imagined it...

John Charles
Houston, Texas

Are you sure it was Trans-Earth EVA and not still in lunar orbit, but before
TEI ?

gb

gb,
After 36 years, I cannot swear to anything, but my very strong
impression is that it was en route back to Earth.
But you raise an interesting question: why was the EVA done after TEI
and not before it, still in lunar orbit?
John Charles
Houston, Texas

g. beat wrote:
"John Charles" wrote in message
oups.com...
Does anyone else recall an artist's concept, ca. 1970, showing the
first J-series mission (identified as Apollo 16 with Young, Mattingly
and Duke) executing their Trans-Earth EVA with the LM ascent stage
still attached? ..
Are you sure it was Trans-Earth EVA and not still in lunar orbit, but before
TEI ?

gb

In message .com, John
Charles writes

g. beat wrote:
"John Charles" wrote in message
oups.com...
Does anyone else recall an artist's concept, ca. 1970, showing the
first J-series mission (identified as Apollo 16 with Young, Mattingly
and Duke) executing their Trans-Earth EVA with the LM ascent stage
still attached? ..
Are you sure it was Trans-Earth EVA and not still in lunar orbit, but before
TEI ?

gb,
After 36 years, I cannot swear to anything, but my very strong
impression is that it was en route back to Earth.
But you raise an interesting question: why was the EVA done after TEI
and not before it, still in lunar orbit?

Because they were collecting data for as long as possible in lunar
orbit?
What else did they do en route to Earth? Not much, I would guess.
And I don't see why anyone would depict the LM ascent stage still
attached after TEI, because it doesn't make sense. You wouldn't want to
propel that mass out of orbit, and one of the aims of the flights was to
drop the LM on the moon to provide a signal for the seismometers.

In article .com,
John Charles wrote:
But you raise an interesting question: why was the EVA done after TEI
and not before it, still in lunar orbit?

Don't think I've ever seen this addressed. However, I think I can guess.

In terms of the spacewalk itself, there's no obvious reason to prefer one
time or the other. But there's plenty of time between TEI and reentry
when the crew don't really have a lot to do, so that's the obvious time.
To make time for it in lunar orbit, you'd either have to end science
operations early, or delay TEI.

Moreover, doing it in lunar orbit would insert a complicated procedure,
which expends a lot of time, effort, and oxygen, *before* a critical
maneuver. Better to do the absolutely-vital maneuver first, and then,
when that's successfully completed and assorted contingency plans are no
longer needed, look after the desirable-but-not-essential spacewalk.
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. |

In article ,
g. beat @spam protected wrote:
Does anyone else recall an artist's concept, ca. 1970, showing the
first J-series mission (identified as Apollo 16 with Young, Mattingly
and Duke) executing their Trans-Earth EVA with the LM ascent stage
still attached? ...

Are you sure it was Trans-Earth EVA and not still in lunar orbit, but before
TEI ?

Given the date (had to be early 1970 at the latest, for Apollo 16 to still
be listed as the first J-series flight), the mission plans probably hadn't
fully settled down. Could be that doing the spacewalk in lunar orbit was
the original plan, and it was changed later.
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. |

I wrote:
To make time for it in lunar orbit, you'd either have to end science
operations early, or delay TEI...
Moreover, doing it in lunar orbit would insert a complicated procedure,
which expends a lot of time, effort, and oxygen, *before* a critical
maneuver...

A friend observes that there's a third issue: after TEI they had
continuous contact with the ground, while in lunar orbit they were out of
touch for perhaps one-third of every orbit. So doing it after TEI meant
better ground monitoring, making the spacewalk a bit simpler and safer.
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. |

On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 03:03:37 GMT, (Henry Spencer)
wrote:

A friend observes that there's a third issue: after TEI they had
continuous contact with the ground, while in lunar orbit they were out of
touch for perhaps one-third of every orbit. So doing it after TEI meant
better ground monitoring, making the spacewalk a bit simpler and safer.

"America, Houston. How'd the EVA go?"

"Uh, well, Houston, we sort of lost Ron while on the back side..."

OM
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OM wrote:
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 03:03:37 GMT, (Henry Spencer)
wrote:

A friend observes that there's a third issue: after TEI they had
continuous contact with the ground, while in lunar orbit they were out of
touch for perhaps one-third of every orbit. So doing it after TEI meant
better ground monitoring, making the spacewalk a bit simpler and safer.

"America, Houston. How'd the EVA go?"

"Uh, well, Houston, we sort of lost Ron while on the back side..."

OM


Yes, but if you let go of the CSM during a TEI EVA, look how much
further you have to fall.

Rusty

apollo 11s ascent stage wasnt crashed into the moon, it was left
abanndoned in orbit and eventually crashed at a unknown location.

it would of been nice to take 11s LM along to TEI, there was plenty of
capability, and LM could of been placed in heliospheric orbit for
retrieval in the far distant future.