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Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?
"Rich" wrote in message
... In infinite wisdom Tom Kirke answered: ==================================== WAS THERE A CIVILIZATION THAT EXISTED 13,000 YEARS AGO? By definition civilization requires cities, so no, there was no civilization 11kBCE. I'm not sure about this (this being that civilizations require cities). civ·i·li·za·tion (sv-l-zshn) n. 1. An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions. 2. The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome. 3. The act or process of civilizing or reaching a civilized state. 4. Cultural or intellectual refinement; good taste. 5. Modern society with its conveniences: returned to civilization after camping in the mountains. It seems a very debatable point. TSM: Rich, This thread originated in sci.archaeology. (Our Eddie hijacked the thread in order to...well, do whatever it is he thinks he is doing.) In anthropology, of which archaeology is a subset in the US at least, 'civilization' has to do with a level of societal development that includes a political/religious/economic heirarchy more ramified than a chiefdom (which usually has only three or four 'levels'). Normally, this requires at least one city to support this heirarchy, and the regional organization that the city needs to survive. In return, the city provides political organization, economic stability, defence, specialized religious and artifact manufacture, etc. A general dictionary definition is inadequate to a discussion requiring technical understanding of terminology. There were cultures, some of them more advanced than others, but no civilizations. I think you have it the wrong way round myself. The above is from dictionary.com and I think it's got it right. TSM: Not for this discussion; unless you prefer imrecision and flames. If you disagree point to a city that existed then. Trivial (for prehistoric cities, a category you call a null set). http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s768954.htm Ruins of 4,300-year-old prehistoric city found in China Chinese archaeologists have discovered the ruins of a prehistoric city dating back an estimated 4,300 years in southwest Sichuan province, state press said. The find provided evidence that the region along the upper reaches of the Yangtze River, with the Chengdu Plain at the core, played an important role in the origin and development of Chinese civilization, experts said. TSM: So what? Jericho is much older, and has been mostly continually lived in. ------------------------------------- http://www.telesterion.com/catal1.htm CATAL HUYUK The Temple City of Prehistoric Anatolia [...] The oldest layer of Catal Huyuk yet excavated (virgin soil has not been reached) is reliably carbon dated to 6,500 B.C,, and reveals a thriving, completely developed and planned, city. They existed, their remains exist today. Rich TSM: Nope. I've studied the literature on Catal Huyuk, seen many of its artifacts, and visited the Smithsonian's traveling exhibit on it. It was large for its time, but it was a village. While the houses were built to a general plan, they were each built by their owners, not by specialist builders. There is no public space at all, and religious spaces are found in each house, not in any "temple". (The "Temple City" business is wrong on both points.) There was no agriculture requiring public works or major communal efforts. The village's location (at the meeting of foothill/plains/river valley) was naturally rich enough in resources to support a large (ca. 5000 souls) population without agriculture. There was trade, but there is no indication that there was specialize, centralized manufacture of the trade items. It was probably very influential, and it lasted for perhaps over a thousand years; but it never was a city, and it was never the center of a 'civilization', sensu strictu. Tom McDonald |
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Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?
"Double-A" wrote in message
om... (Tom Kirke) wrote in message ... ==================================== WAS THERE A CIVILIZATION THAT EXISTED 13,000 YEARS AGO? By definition civilization requires cities, so no, there was no civilization 11kBCE. There were cultures, some of them more advanced than others, but no civilizations. If you disagree point to a city that existed then. tom Cities of deer skin huts would leave few traces. Double-A AA, A city of deerskin huts, if it were a city in the true sense, would leave many, many traces for archaeologists. Even the huts would probably leave at least post-hole patterns (unless you are thinking of teepees). A city of deerskin huts would leave vast numbers of hearths, probably storage pits, refuse dumps, heavy indications of worked stone (flint, etc.), and many disgarded or lost artifacts. -- Tom McDonald remove 'nohormel' to reply |
#23
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Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?
In article , DrPostman
wrote: On 9 Oct 2003 16:54:06 -0700, (Double-A) wrote: (Tom Kirke) wrote in message ... ==================================== WAS THERE A CIVILIZATION THAT EXISTED 13,000 YEARS AGO? By definition civilization requires cities, so no, there was no civilization 11kBCE. There were cultures, some of them more advanced than others, but no civilizations. If you disagree point to a city that existed then. tom Cities of deer skin huts would leave few traces. Double-A You would be wrong there. If they existed there would be evidence of the fires in those huts, the garbage thrown away as well as many of the tools they used. Mounds of evidence! -=-=-=-=- |
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Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?
"Thomas McDonald" wrote in message
... "Double-A" wrote in message om... (Tom Kirke) wrote in message ... ==================================== WAS THERE A CIVILIZATION THAT EXISTED 13,000 YEARS AGO? By definition civilization requires cities, so no, there was no civilization 11kBCE. There were cultures, some of them more advanced than others, but no civilizations. If you disagree point to a city that existed then. tom Cities of deer skin huts would leave few traces. Double-A AA, A city of deerskin huts, if it were a city in the true sense, would leave many, many traces for archaeologists. Even the huts would probably leave at least post-hole patterns (unless you are thinking of teepees). A city of deerskin huts would leave vast numbers of hearths, probably storage pits, refuse dumps, heavy indications of worked stone (flint, etc.), and many disgarded or lost artifacts. A "city" also presupposes that certain civic problems like sanitation, water, and transportation of goods had been solved, any one of which would necessarily leave more traces than rotting deerskin. Sheesh. Jim |
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Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?
"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message ... Paul R. Mays wrote: Yes... During the ice age? Where and with what evidence do you believe it? There were humans and human societies 13,000 ybp but did they constitute a civilization in the sense of Egypt or Babylon? Bob Kolker First its actually a bit older than 13k more like 15 to 20 k Try this.. Don't consider any point of view but your own and look at 3 points and come up with a better idea.... First: DNA Bottle neck.. Mitochondria DNA shows a almost ELI event about 10 to 15 k ago that left a small segment to repopulate of possible a few k people world wide. Second: Map the positions and mathematical symmetry of the locations of Easter Island, Plains of Gaza, and the plains of Nasser (sp) .. I will not tell you what I think you will find.. you just look and make up your mind.. Third: Map all the pyramids in Gaza... the bent, the stepped the 3 main and the Red and the grey... add the location of the Nile river and match that map to the Orion Constellation... Then go to your trusty star map software and back it through time till to only point that it matches the relationships and you will find that it matches each star (all 7) and the location of the Nile will match the band of the milkyway... 10k to 13k Do it your self and see what you come up with.... As for why a past civilization being a bit hard to know of it simple... The ice age... Cities that would have been close to water ways during the early period of the ice age would be left high and dry so many would move to the water for all the same reasons we started most cities along the water.. Then the big melt... Those cities would now be miles out at sea under 400 to 800 feet of water and under 20k years of debris and marine growth.. and any old structures left behind would be reworked as a new population grows and retakes the now dry lands... The writer of Lost Civilization ( can't remember the guys name ) gives a lot of evidence that seems very convincing.... The pyramid match to the Orion group is very interesting... Because if its really a map of that system then all the pyramids had to be designed at the same time inorder to conform the map. Which throws a monkey wrench into the classical model... Also .. I think if it was closely studied that there is a relationship between the design of each pyramids and the star it matches in Orion Maybe the Red pyramids matches a Red Giant , Stepped pyramids matches a multi planetary system ect.. Know if there is a correlation but if there is its a biggy,,,,,, |
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Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?
"Tom Kirke" wrote in message ... ==================================== WAS THERE A CIVILIZATION THAT EXISTED 13,000 YEARS AGO? By definition civilization requires cities, so no, there was no civilization 11kBCE. There were cultures, some of them more advanced than others, but no civilizations. If you disagree point to a city that existed then. tom http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/2962443.htm http://archives.mundoacuatico.com/oc...iousstones.pdf http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...kencities.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1923794.stm http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in522626.shtml http://www.chinapost.com.tw/detail.asp?ID=32604&GRP=A http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue1...apanunder.html Thats a start but theres a much longer list.... -- We have discovered a therapy ( NOT a cure ) for the common cold. Play tuba for an hour. |
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Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?
"Double-A" wrote in message om... (Tom Kirke) wrote in message ... ==================================== WAS THERE A CIVILIZATION THAT EXISTED 13,000 YEARS AGO? By definition civilization requires cities, so no, there was no civilization 11kBCE. There were cultures, some of them more advanced than others, but no civilizations. If you disagree point to a city that existed then. tom Cities of deer skin huts would leave few traces. Double-A Cities under a few hundred feet of water and 90 or so feet of ocean debris can wipe a few traces.. and how much of a trace would you say a 200 foot tall stone building would leave... after being scraped over by a couple miles of ice.... for a 1000 years or so... |
#28
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Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?
"Thomas McDonald" wrote in message ... "Double-A" wrote in message om... (Tom Kirke) wrote in message ... ==================================== WAS THERE A CIVILIZATION THAT EXISTED 13,000 YEARS AGO? By definition civilization requires cities, so no, there was no civilization 11kBCE. There were cultures, some of them more advanced than others, but no civilizations. If you disagree point to a city that existed then. tom Cities of deer skin huts would leave few traces. Double-A AA, A city of deerskin huts, if it were a city in the true sense, would leave many, many traces for archaeologists. Even the huts would probably leave at least post-hole patterns (unless you are thinking of teepees). A city of deerskin huts would leave vast numbers of hearths, probably storage pits, refuse dumps, heavy indications of worked stone (flint, etc.), and many disgarded or lost artifacts. -- Tom McDonald remove 'nohormel' to reply Do you really think what is where people hang out today was where they did say 25 k ago? If you want to find evidence it will be out at sea and down 400 to 600 feet under 60 to 80 feet of rock, coral, sand and crap of 20 k years.. We already know from DNA that around 20 k ago the population of the planet was cut by over 90% (DNA Bottle neck) http://crimp.lbl.gov/faywu99.pdf In this world we know far less than we do know... Paul R. Mays ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Some where within the Quantum State Http://Paul.Mays.Com http://paul.mays.com/resume.html "Now, my suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose... I suspect that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of, in any philosophy" - J.B.S. Haldane |
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Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:13:12 -0600, "Carl R. Osterwald"
wrote in alt.fan.art-bell: Cities of deer skin huts would leave few traces. Double-A You would be wrong there. If they existed there would be evidence of the fires in those huts, the garbage thrown away as well as many of the tools they used. Mounds of evidence! -=-=-=-=- bRAY? -- V.G. "People are more violently opposed to fur than leather, because it is easier to harrass rich women than it is motorcycle gangs." - Bumper Sticker (This sig file contains not less than 80% recycled SPAM) Sarcasm is my sword, Apathy is my shield. |
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