....A Quote From Len Cormier...and yet another rant!

On 20 Jun, 02:20, "jonathan" wrote:
In the recent discussions of the passing of Len Cormier, the
reasons for the demise of the space ng's seem to keep
coming up. Of course, most simply blame it on the kooks
or various others that are rude or disagree with the
party line. Or people like me that qualify on all those
counts~

But I think most know the truth, which I
believe to be....

* * *The day the Vision was announced, was the day
* * * * * * * * * *....'the music died'.

And with it these ngs died also.

To quote Len....

"That is why some of us have suggested that one of the best
things that government might do is to guarantee markets:
"If you will build it, we will come."

"I don't really recommend funding the dumping of a bunch of raw
material in orbit. *It should definitely have some value and
usefulness. *However, its main usefulness may be as a demonstration
that CATS is possible. Once CATS is shown to be possible, then
a lot of applications become possible -- including *SDI; manned
planetary missions; space solar power stations..."

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.s...thread/thread/...

All that died when President Bush canceled the Space Solar Power
program and replaced it with the Vision.

With the death of SSP, so died the idea of spaceports (remember those?).
And so died govt payloads jump starting commercial launch industry
and bringing cheap access.

NASA itself is dying with the Vision. As anyone with a whit of political
sense knows such a wasteful and useless make-work program
designed only to benefit large contractors and missile defense
is doomed in a high deficit recession environment.

Such a corrupt goal as the Vision is doomed under any circumstances.
Blame others if *you like for the demise of these ng's or of NASA, but
the truth lies within.

And if the Vision is dropped...what then becomes of NASA?

However.....

It's time to Dream Again, and go back to the future.
And insist NASA returns to the goals established
before President Bush ...Laid Waste...to our space future.

Space Solar Power (SERT) was the source of all those dreams.
Govt payloads driving commercial launches, providing needs for
spaceports, then cheap access and the sky becomes the limit.

I'm not leaving these ng's until that dream becomes reality
once again. If I have to I intend to will it back into existence
myself with endless rhetoric, browbeating, shaming, flaming
guilt-trips or whatever it takes to build a new consensus
that SSP is the path to a better future.

A goal that solves two greatest threats to this planet.
Energy shortages and global warming.
While securing American prosperity and independence
for the rest of the century by becoming the next
energy 'Saudi Arabia'.

A goal specifically designed to be....popular...
with EVERYONE. From the greenies to the
military to the greedy. Everyone outside the
Middle East that is....

ALL THAT is within our grasp....RIGHT NOW.

Nothing less than saving the planet from itself
while creating a shining future for America.

With a drifting NASA, a new idealistic administration, and the
onset of peak oil and global warming, the time to focus, agree
and press for a new goal is NOW.

Not next year, not next decade NOW DAMMIT!

Call me a kook if you like, but I think ...your heroes
would agree with me. *There's one thing about reality
most seem to forget. If enough people holler about something
it can happen.

A few determined people can 'Save/change the World'
...all we have to do is */want it/ *badly enough.

Am I asking too much?

What's perhaps the most timeless question of all?
How can an old man be reborn again?

* * * The Bone that has no marrow;
* * * * What ultimate for that?
* * * It is not fit for table,
* * * * For beggar, or for cat.

* * * A bone has obligations,
* * * * A being has the same;
* * * A marrowless assembly
* * * * Is culpabler than shame.

* * * But how shall finished creatures
* * * * A function fresh obtain?-
* * * Old Nicodemus' phantom
* * * * Confronting us again!

A worthy 'cause' is the answer.
I'll never grow old.

Poetic Guilt-trip by E Dickinson

Jonathan

s

The paradox of the situation is that the weight per unit of power
generated continues to go down. This is particularly true if you
concentrate solar energy by the use of mirrors. However weight is not
the only factor. SSP has not only to be generated, it has to be
transmitted to Earth in a safe (and seen to be safe) way.

I believe that phase coherence and SSP generated by a large number of
phase locked units is the way forward. I feel that although we can the
way in which the technology might work we are still some distance
away. What I think William Mook, and others of a like mind, have to
concentrate on is working out a set of viable intermediate stages.
This is why I would attach great important to things like LISA which
demonstrate phase locking over considerable distances.

One thing which I feel should be pointed out SSP requires phase
locking, it does not need heavy indivisible loads. What is needed is
the most economical way of getting to LEO with ion propulsion going to
the final destination. After all an SSP program will have plenty of
energy to accelerate Xenon/Mercury to 100km/s.

William Mook has talked about NIR for photovolaics on Earth. We could
perhaps direct some power, preferably at night, to existing
terrestrial solar power installations.


- Ian Parker

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:20:51 -0400, in a place far, far away,
"jonathan" made the phosphor on my monitor
glow in such a way as to indicate that:


In the recent discussions of the passing of Len Cormier, the
reasons for the demise of the space ng's seem to keep
coming up. Of course, most simply blame it on the kooks
or various others that are rude or disagree with the
party line. Or people like me that qualify on all those
counts~

But I think most know the truth, which I
believe to be....

The day the Vision was announced, was the day
....'the music died'.

And with it these ngs died also.

To quote Len....

"That is why some of us have suggested that one of the best
things that government might do is to guarantee markets:
"If you will build it, we will come."

"I don't really recommend funding the dumping of a bunch of raw
material in orbit. It should definitely have some value and
usefulness. However, its main usefulness may be as a demonstration
that CATS is possible. Once CATS is shown to be possible, then
a lot of applications become possible -- including SDI; manned
planetary missions; space solar power stations..."

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.s... 6865e622daba


All that died when President Bush canceled the Space Solar Power
program and replaced it with the Vision.

This never happened, you loon. There was no "Space Solar Power
program" to cancel, and it wasn't "replaced" with anything.

On 19 Jun, 13:21, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:20:51 -0400, in a place far, far away,
"jonathan" made the phosphor on my monitor
glow in such a way as to indicate that:







In the recent discussions of the passing of Len Cormier, the
reasons for the demise of the space ng's seem to keep
coming up. Of course, most simply blame it on the kooks
or various others that are rude or disagree with the
party line. Or people like me that qualify on all those
counts~

But I think most know the truth, which I
believe to be....

* * The day the Vision was announced, was the day
* * * * * * * * * ....'the music died'.

And with it these ngs died also.

To quote Len....

"That is why some of us have suggested that one of the best
things that government might do is to guarantee markets:
"If you will build it, we will come."

"I don't really recommend funding the dumping of a bunch of raw
material in orbit. *It should definitely have some value and
usefulness. *However, its main usefulness may be as a demonstration
that CATS is possible. Once CATS is shown to be possible, then
a lot of applications become possible -- including *SDI; manned
planetary missions; space solar power stations..."

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.s...thread/thread/...

All that died when President Bush canceled the Space Solar Power
program and replaced it with the Vision.

This never happened, you loon. *There was no "Space Solar Power
program" to cancel, and it wasn't "replaced" with anything.- Hide quoted text -

There have been studies done

http://www.space.com/businesstechnol..._011017-1.html

A report has been produced.

http://www.acq.osd.mil/nsso/solar/SB...sesment0.1.pdf

It would seem that the current NASA conclusion (first reference) very
much echos my general approach. It advocates investigating terrestrial
transmission. I think you know the basic Physics is known and has been
demonstrated.

As I keep saying my objection to all these references is that they are
all wedded to rigid structures.


- Ian Parker

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:55:12 -0700 (PDT), in a place far, far away,
Ian Parker made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

On 19 Jun, 13:21, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:20:51 -0400, in a place far, far away,
"jonathan" made the phosphor on my monitor
glow in such a way as to indicate that:

All that died when President Bush canceled the Space Solar Power
program and replaced it with the Vision.

This never happened, you loon. *There was no "Space Solar Power
program" to cancel, and it wasn't "replaced" with anything.- Hide quoted text -

There have been studies done

http://www.space.com/businesstechnol..._011017-1.html

A report has been produced.

http://www.acq.osd.mil/nsso/solar/SB...sesment0.1.pdf

Neither a study, or a report, are a "program." And that report was
produced without a single dime of government money. And it happened
long after VSE was announced.

On 19 Jun, 15:59, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:55:12 -0700 (PDT), in a place far, far away,
Ian Parker made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:





On 19 Jun, 13:21, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:20:51 -0400, in a place far, far away,
"jonathan" made the phosphor on my monitor
glow in such a way as to indicate that:
All that died when President Bush canceled the Space Solar Power
program and replaced it with the Vision.

This never happened, you loon. *There was no "Space Solar Power
program" to cancel, and it wasn't "replaced" with anything.- Hide quoted text -

There have been studies done

http://www.space.com/businesstechnol...r_power_sats_0...

A report has been produced.

http://www.acq.osd.mil/nsso/solar/SB...sesment0.1.pdf

Neither a study, or a report, are a "program." *And that report was
produced without a single dime of government money. *And it happened
long after VSE was announced.- Hide quoted text -

True. In point of fact the advocates of terrestrial solar power, in
particular the people who are printing silicon onto glass and other
materials are saying that what they want from government is not
subsidies but a level playing field. An end to subsidies for other
routes, in particular for wind power.

SSP should, of course, aim to be competitive without subsidy. SSP
should save X barrels of oil which will finance it. It is however
heavily dependent of the GOODWILL of government. It will need a lot of
infrastructure to get off the ground.

It also needs to operate in an environment where the costs and
benefits are shared between a number of nations. The construction of
such an environment is something which government alone can do. As I
have repeatedly said space seems to be viewed as a national virility
symbol. This attitude will have to change.


- Ian Parker

Ian Parker wrote:
There have been studies done

http://www.space.com/businesstechnol..._011017-1.html

A report has been produced.

http://www.acq.osd.mil/nsso/solar/SB...sesment0.1.pdf

It would seem that the current NASA conclusion (first reference) very
much echos my general approach. It advocates investigating terrestrial
transmission. I think you know the basic Physics is known and has been
demonstrated.

As I keep saying my objection to all these references is that they are
all wedded to rigid structures.

Japan is getting into the concept in a operational form:
http://inventorspot.com/articles/spa...lights_j_10628

Pat

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:43:21 -0400, in a place far, far away,
"jonathan" made the phosphor on my monitor
glow in such a way as to indicate that:


"Rand Simberg" wrote in message
...


All that died when President Bush canceled the Space Solar Power
program and replaced it with the Vision.

This never happened, you loon. There was no "Space Solar Power
program" to cancel, and it wasn't "replaced" with anything.


I'm sorry, maybe you were distracted by the Impeachment fiasco, but
the language is clear. NASA was charged with ...developing....not studying
the technology needed to start up a very ambitious SSP program.


Executive Summary
NASA'S SPACE SOLAR POWER EXPLORATORY RESEARCH
AND TECHNOLOGY (SERT) PROGRAM

"SERT program" and "SERT effort" refer to both the 2-year Space
Solar Power Exploratory Research and Technology (SERT) program
during FY 1999 and 2000 and the follow-on effort in FY 2001, the
SSP Research and Technology (SSP R&T) program."

The first year Bush had control of OMB they immediately cancelled
it outright.

That was 2002, a year before Columbia was lost.

A year later or so came the Vision.

The vision came out in 2004, a year after Columbia was lost. There
was no SPS program, even a minimal R&T program, to cancel at that
point.

The vision was a result of the Columbia loss. Anyone familiar with
the history of space policy knows this. It had absolutely nothing to
do with SPS. To think otherwise is to be monumentally ignorant of
space policy history, or nuts.

Or both.

In the recent discussions of the passing of Len Cormier, the
reasons for the demise of the space ng's seem to keep
coming up. Of course, most simply blame it on the kooks
or various others that are rude or disagree with the
party line. Or people like me that qualify on all those
counts~

But I think most know the truth, which I
believe to be....

The day the Vision was announced, was the day
....'the music died'.

And with it these ngs died also.

To quote Len....

"That is why some of us have suggested that one of the best
things that government might do is to guarantee markets:
"If you will build it, we will come."

"I don't really recommend funding the dumping of a bunch of raw
material in orbit. It should definitely have some value and
usefulness. However, its main usefulness may be as a demonstration
that CATS is possible. Once CATS is shown to be possible, then
a lot of applications become possible -- including SDI; manned
planetary missions; space solar power stations..."

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.s... 6865e622daba


All that died when President Bush canceled the Space Solar Power
program and replaced it with the Vision.

With the death of SSP, so died the idea of spaceports (remember those?).
And so died govt payloads jump starting commercial launch industry
and bringing cheap access.

NASA itself is dying with the Vision. As anyone with a whit of political
sense knows such a wasteful and useless make-work program
designed only to benefit large contractors and missile defense
is doomed in a high deficit recession environment.

Such a corrupt goal as the Vision is doomed under any circumstances.
Blame others if you like for the demise of these ng's or of NASA, but
the truth lies within.

And if the Vision is dropped...what then becomes of NASA?


However.....

It's time to Dream Again, and go back to the future.
And insist NASA returns to the goals established
before President Bush ...Laid Waste...to our space future.

Space Solar Power (SERT) was the source of all those dreams.
Govt payloads driving commercial launches, providing needs for
spaceports, then cheap access and the sky becomes the limit.

I'm not leaving these ng's until that dream becomes reality
once again. If I have to I intend to will it back into existence
myself with endless rhetoric, browbeating, shaming, flaming
guilt-trips or whatever it takes to build a new consensus
that SSP is the path to a better future.

A goal that solves two greatest threats to this planet.
Energy shortages and global warming.
While securing American prosperity and independence
for the rest of the century by becoming the next
energy 'Saudi Arabia'.

A goal specifically designed to be....popular...
with EVERYONE. From the greenies to the
military to the greedy. Everyone outside the
Middle East that is....

ALL THAT is within our grasp....RIGHT NOW.

Nothing less than saving the planet from itself
while creating a shining future for America.

With a drifting NASA, a new idealistic administration, and the
onset of peak oil and global warming, the time to focus, agree
and press for a new goal is NOW.

Not next year, not next decade NOW DAMMIT!

Call me a kook if you like, but I think ...your heroes
would agree with me. There's one thing about reality
most seem to forget. If enough people holler about something
it can happen.

A few determined people can 'Save/change the World'
....all we have to do is /want it/ badly enough.

Am I asking too much?


What's perhaps the most timeless question of all?
How can an old man be reborn again?


The Bone that has no marrow;
What ultimate for that?
It is not fit for table,
For beggar, or for cat.

A bone has obligations,
A being has the same;
A marrowless assembly
Is culpabler than shame.

But how shall finished creatures
A function fresh obtain?-
Old Nicodemus' phantom
Confronting us again!


A worthy 'cause' is the answer.
I'll never grow old.


Poetic Guilt-trip by E Dickinson


Jonathan


s

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:00:28 -0400, in a place far, far away,
"jonathan" made the phosphor on my monitor
glow in such a way as to indicate that:



"Rand Simberg" wrote in message
...
Neither a study, or a report, are a "program." And that report was
produced without a single dime of government money. And it happened
long after VSE was announced.


SERT spent $22 million in 99 and 2000.
http://www.rish.kyoto-u.ac.jp/jusps/KA-2.pdf
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/legaff/mankins9-7.html

A completely trivial amount of money for a "program." And again, it
has nothing do to with what happened in 2004.

I can tell you rarely get past the first paragraph before responding.
Please read a little further~


Statement of John C. Mankins
Manager, Advanced Concepts Studies
Office of Space Flight
September 7, 2000

As a former project manager of SPS at a major aerospace corporation, I
know John Mankins quite well.

None of this supports your insane and ignorant contention that Bush
killed SPS and replaced it with VSE.

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 03:37:13 GMT, h (Rand
Simberg) wrote:

None of this supports your insane and ignorant contention that Bush
killed SPS and replaced it with VSE.

....Speaking of killing, Rand, can I request once again that you
killfile "jonathan"? Please? Enough's enough, and I'm asking *very*
politely on this one.

OM
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