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OK, here's an Apollo what-if that's been discussed somewhat, but I
figured I would try and state it clearly. What if Mike Collins had never suffered from a bad neck vertebrae and never been replaced on his original Apollo crew? The assumption is that *everything* else had occurred as it really did -- Apollo 13 and all. 1) Apollo 8 would have been crewed by Borman, Anders and Collins. 2) The Apollo 10 backup crew would have been Cooper, Eisele and Haise. Fred was in line just ahead of Ed Mitchell, and if he had not been pressed into service on the Apollo 8 backup crew, he would have been on the next available crew, which would have been the Apollo 10 backup crew. 3) Apollo 11 would have been flown by Armstrong, Aldrin and Lovell. 4) While Collins was able to turn Deke down when approached for the backup CDR job on Apollo 14, I doubt Mike would have been able to turn Deke down if offered the job of backing up Neil Armstrong on Apollo 11. So, the backup crew for Apollo 11 would likely have been Collins, Anders and Mitchell. Anders would have bowed out late in the game, with Ken Mattingly becoming the de-facto backup CMP by the time of the flight. 5) Jim Lovell would have been offered the backup CDR slot on Apollo 14. Unlike Collins, Lovell would have taken the job. 6) Apollo 13 would probably have been flown by Collins, Swigert and Mitchell. Mattingly would have ended up getting bumped by the measles scare, and remember, Haise would have been the slot Mitchell occupied in our timeline. (I'm thinking that, after backing up Armstrong on Apollo 11, Collins would have been willing to go on through prime crew training for his own landing mission. And would have ended up getting screwed over by the luck of the draw, and by George Mueller insisting that Al Shepard needed more training time than he would get by flying 13.) 7) Apollo 14 would have been flown by Shepard, Roosa and Haise. Fred would have gotten his moonwalk. 8) Apollo 17 would have been flown by Lovell, Schmitt and Evans. Gene Cernan, in insisting upon trying for his own command, would have gambled away his only chance at walking on the moon. So, none of the really important milestones would have changed. But Jim Lovell would have been the last guy to walk on the moon, and Gene Cernan would have been lucky to get a Skylab seat. Or maybe command of ASTP, a far cry from the landing mission he wanted. I sort of wish it had worked out that way -- though it would have been a tough thing for Collins, to end up with Apollo 13. Truthfully, I REALLY wish that things had gone the way they actually did, up to where Collins turned Deke down. I would have LOVED to have read Collins' descriptions of commanding Apollo 17. He is the best writer of all of the Apollo astronauts, and would have really brought the experience home. -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup | |
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"Doug..." wrote in message
... OK, here's an Apollo what-if that's been discussed somewhat, but I figured I would try and state it clearly. What if Mike Collins had never suffered from a bad neck vertebrae and never been replaced on his original Apollo crew? The assumption is that *everything* else had occurred as it really did -- Apollo 13 and all. 6) Apollo 13 would probably have been flown by Collins, Swigert and Mitchell. Mattingly would have ended up getting bumped by the measles scare, and remember, Haise would have been the slot Mitchell occupied in our timeline. (I'm thinking that, after backing up Armstrong on Apollo 11, Collins would have been willing to go on through prime crew training for his own landing mission. And would have ended up getting screwed over by the luck of the draw, and by George Mueller insisting that Al Shepard needed more training time than he would get by flying 13.) Okay, if Mike Collins was the Commander for Apollo 13 - then he would have the opportunity to veto the flight - based on 2 criteria: Mattingly measles AND changeout of the Oxygen #2 tank in the Service Module based on the fill/drain problem (the tank that exploded in route). Jim Lovell talks about this in his book "Lost Moon" (Apollo 13). It really comes down to what would Mike have accepted for risk? I think an interesting view is that Mike served under 2 CDRs - John Young on Gemini 10 and Borman on Apollo 8 - that were different in their approaches to risk than other CDR. I sort of wish it had worked out that way -- though it would have been a tough thing for Collins, to end up with Apollo 13. Truthfully, I REALLY wish that things had gone the way they actually did, up to where Collins turned Deke down. I would have LOVED to have read Collins' descriptions of commanding Apollo 17. He is the best writer of all of the Apollo astronauts, and would have really brought the experience home. IF Mike would have retired after Apollo 13 (as Lovell did), is another interesting thread. GB -- DO NOT use Reply. Only reply through ARRL forwarding service to W9GB Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup | |
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4) While Collins was able to turn Deke down when approached for the
backup CDR job on Apollo 14, I doubt Mike would have been able to turn Deke down if offered the job of backing up Neil Armstrong on Apollo 11. I hadn't considered this one...if Collins had flown Apollo 8, he was probably the best qualified guy to land the backup slot on Apollo 11 and that would be a tough job to turn down. What other alternatives could there have been? Jim McDivitt or Dave Scott possibly? 8) Apollo 17 would have been flown by Lovell, Schmitt and Evans. Gene Cernan, in insisting upon trying for his own command, would have gambled away his only chance at walking on the moon. I dunno if this is the case here. Cernan admits in his own book that had he known that Michael Collins was Slayton's first choice for backing up 14 and commanding 17 he would have re-considered his odds. Cernan probably should have known he'd have pretty much no chance of being selected over Jim Lovell (on experience, seniority, etc). -A.L. |
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In message , Doug...
writes I sort of wish it had worked out that way -- though it would have been a tough thing for Collins, to end up with Apollo 13. I'm probably missing the point, but would it have been any more tough than being the forgotten man of the first moon landing flight? -- "Roads in space for rockets to travel....four-dimensional roads, curving with relativity" Mail to jsilverlight AT merseia.fsnet.co.uk is welcome. Or visit Jonathan's Space Site http://www.merseia.fsnet.co.uk |
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In article ,
says... In message , Doug... writes I sort of wish it had worked out that way -- though it would have been a tough thing for Collins, to end up with Apollo 13. I'm probably missing the point, but would it have been any more tough than being the forgotten man of the first moon landing flight? Ah, but Mike was completely satisfied with his seat on Apollo 11. And the flight went off exactly as planned. That has to be a lot more satisfying than training to land on the moon and then struggling just to survive, watching the moon slip through your fingers while your crippled ship sailed on by, no longer capable of delivering you to your destination.) I also say that Apollo 13 would have been difficult for Collins because he was the self-avowed least mechanically inclined guy in the astronaut corps. It would be that much harder for him to have to deal with a spacecraft that suddenly went dead 205,000 miles away from home... -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup | |
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Doug... wrote:
But I don't think Mike would have turned that job down. Deke would have pushed on him harder than he did for the Apollo 14 BCDR job, since it's the first landing flight we're talking about, here. Nit: First landing *attempt*. That it would in fact be the first landing was not known until the contact light lit. D. -- The STS-107 Columbia Loss FAQ can be found at the following URLs: Text-Only Version: http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq.html Enhanced HTML Version: http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq_x.html Corrections, comments, and additions should be e-mailed to , as well as posted to sci.space.history and sci.space.shuttle for discussion. |
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In article ,
says... Doug... wrote: But I don't think Mike would have turned that job down. Deke would have pushed on him harder than he did for the Apollo 14 BCDR job, since it's the first landing flight we're talking about, here. Nit: First landing *attempt*. That it would in fact be the first landing was not known until the contact light lit. Very true. But even as the first landing attempt, Apollo 11 was from the start acknowledged as "it," the flight every guy in the corps had been angling for since Kennedy threw down the gauntlet. Everyone knew that Apollos 9 and 10 might have failed, requiring a repeat, and everyone knew that there was no guarantee that the first landing attempt would succeed. But that group of egos was big enough that anyone who had *any* chance of flying Apollo 11 was certain that, if it was *not* the first landing, it wouldn't fail because *he* screwed up. -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for | Doug Van Dorn thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup | |
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![]() Homer J. Fong wrote: Are there any other astronauts aside from Mike Collins that don't use ghostwriters to assist them with their books? Every book he writes, he does so on his own, whereas others always have "With Joe Schmo" attached to the credits. One of the "Schmo"s posts here -- perhaps he can answer this question -- assuming he doesn't mind being categorized as a "Schmo". :-) |
#10
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"Doug..." wrote in message
... Very true. But even as the first landing attempt, Apollo 11 was from the start acknowledged as "it," the flight every guy in the corps had been angling for since Kennedy threw down the gauntlet. Everyone knew that Apollos 9 and 10 might have failed, requiring a repeat, and everyone knew that there was no guarantee that the first landing attempt would succeed. But that group of egos was big enough that anyone who had *any* chance of flying Apollo 11 was certain that, if it was *not* the first landing, it wouldn't fail because *he* screwed up. I've always understood that prior to 9 & 10s success most of the guys were looking at 12 as the highly likely first landing attempt. Almost everybody believed that 8, 9 and 10 would have enough unfulfilled objectives to make 11 another rehearsal. v/r Ward |
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