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"The Story Of Peenemunde, Or What Might Have Been"



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 5th 07, 08:12 AM posted to sci.space.history,rec.aviation.military
Scott Lowther
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Posts: 122
Default "The Story Of Peenemunde, Or What Might Have Been"

Fourth one in: http://www.up-ship.com/drawndoc/drawndocspace.htm

A giant compilation of reports (763 pages), translations and interviews
with the German rocket scientists while under detention by the US Army
in Garmish, Germany, circa 1945-1946.This covered virtually everty
aspect of work at Peenemunde, from the design of the A-4 and the A-9
(including the closest I've been able to find to source documentation
describing a manned A-9) to instrumentation, cannon shell designs and
even mortar rounds.

I've been sitting on this for more than a decade. Finally decided to
scan it in and make it available. I'm surprised I've not seen it
available before... it's a historically important compilation. Shows
both what the Germans were working on, *and* it shows what the US Army
had access to in the days right after the war.

--
-------
The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken
  #2  
Old July 5th 07, 05:07 PM posted to sci.space.history,rec.aviation.military
Rob Arndt
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Posts: 82
Default "The Story Of Peenemunde, Or What Might Have Been"

On Jul 5, 12:12?am, Scott Lowther
wrote:
Fourth one in: http://www.up-ship.com/drawndoc/drawndocspace.htm

A giant compilation of reports (763 pages), translations and interviews
with the German rocket scientists while under detention by the US Army
in Garmish, Germany, circa 1945-1946.This covered virtually everty
aspect of work at Peenemunde, from the design of the A-4 and the A-9
(including the closest I've been able to find to source documentation
describing a manned A-9) to instrumentation, cannon shell designs and
even mortar rounds.

I've been sitting on this for more than a decade. Finally decided to
scan it in and make it available. I'm surprised I've not seen it
available before... it's a historically important compilation. Shows
both what the Germans were working on, *and* it shows what the US Army
had access to in the days right after the war.

--
-------
The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken


Doesn't seem all that impressive Scott. Wind tunnels, missiles,
projectiles, motors, EMW, and a bunch of interviews with the big
names.

Where is Heinrich Fleissner, BTW, and his work? Seems to be missing.

Also you are misleading people into thinking that a compilation from
45-46 automatically is authoritative. Any classified material at
Peenemunde would not be included in that compilation and you know it.
The Intel guys would have removed sensitive material immediately and
also would have held seperate "special" interrogations.

The recent revelation of special Allied interrogator groups like
P.O.Box 1142 make that compilation incomplete.

You also falsely assume that the interrogations revealed everything.
Not so. It just reveals what was not instantly classified and what
information the Germans wanted to provide to keep a noose from around
their neck.

Some of the work intended for Peenemunde was also diverted near the
end of the war. Peenemunde worked on the V-1 thru V-3 (the shells).
But the Henschel V-4 design work was performed with a Zuse S-computer
at a company factory while assembly of prototypes were completed at
Misdroy instead of Peenemunde due to the war situation. Launch ramps
aimed North against Sweden were constructed there as well in 1945.

Furthermore, it is fairly safe to assume that once the Soviets got
Peenemunde that the mysterious "Ghost Rockets" seen over Scandinavia
came from there- secret weapons that were resumed and ones not listed
in that compilation. At least some of those silver streaks in the sky
had to be the longer range V-4s (mistaken in many accounts as probable
extended range V-1s). Not really possible in the short timeframe due
to a complete redesign of the missile for added fuel and more powerful
engine and refined aerodynamics. V-4 was already suited for the job.

Rob

  #3  
Old July 5th 07, 05:14 PM posted to sci.space.history,rec.aviation.military
Scott Lowther
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Posts: 122
Default "The Story Of Peenemunde, Or What Might Have Been"

Rob Arndt wrote:

On Jul 5, 12:12?am, Scott Lowther
wrote:


Fourth one in: http://www.up-ship.com/drawndoc/drawndocspace.htm

A giant compilation of reports (763 pages), translations and interviews
with the German rocket scientists while under detention by the US Army
in Garmish, Germany, circa 1945-1946.This covered virtually everty
aspect of work at Peenemunde, from the design of the A-4 and the A-9
(including the closest I've been able to find to source documentation
describing a manned A-9) to instrumentation, cannon shell designs and
even mortar rounds.

I've been sitting on this for more than a decade. Finally decided to
scan it in and make it available. I'm surprised I've not seen it
available before... it's a historically important compilation. Shows
both what the Germans were working on, *and* it shows what the US Army
had access to in the days right after the war.

--
-------
The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken



Doesn't seem all that impressive Scott.


That didn't take long.

--
-------
The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken


  #4  
Old July 5th 07, 09:28 PM posted to sci.space.history,rec.aviation.military
OM[_6_]
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Posts: 1,849
Default "The Story Of Peenemunde, Or What Might Have Been"

On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 16:14:04 GMT, Scott Lowther
wrote:

The Dip**** who was Willingly Molested as a Child, Rob Arndt blathered:


Doesn't seem all that impressive Scott.


....Boy, did you have to sleep on that response or what?

That didn't take long.


....Nor was it impressive unto itself. Makes me wonder if slapping him
upside the head with a baseball bat would stimulate his creativity
any?

OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
  #5  
Old July 5th 07, 09:28 PM posted to sci.space.history,rec.aviation.military
BradGuth
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Posts: 21,544
Default "The Story Of Peenemunde, Or What Might Have Been"

On Jul 5, 9:14 am, Scott Lowther
wrote:
Rob Arndt wrote:
On Jul 5, 12:12?am, Scott Lowther
wrote:


Fourth one in: http://www.up-ship.com/drawndoc/drawndocspace.htm


A giant compilation of reports (763 pages), translations and interviews
with the German rocket scientists while under detention by the US Army
in Garmish, Germany, circa 1945-1946.This covered virtually everty
aspect of work at Peenemunde, from the design of the A-4 and the A-9
(including the closest I've been able to find to source documentation
describing a manned A-9) to instrumentation, cannon shell designs and
even mortar rounds.


I've been sitting on this for more than a decade. Finally decided to
scan it in and make it available. I'm surprised I've not seen it
available before... it's a historically important compilation. Shows
both what the Germans were working on, *and* it shows what the US Army
had access to in the days right after the war.


--
-------
The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken


Doesn't seem all that impressive Scott.


That didn't take long.

--
-------
The fact that I have no remedy for all the sorrows of the world is no reason for my accepting yours. It simply supports the strong probability that yours is a fake. - H.L. Mencken- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


All they can do is whine and bitch. About what you'd expect from a
Third Reich pro-Zionest that sees nothing wrong with exterminating the
innocent that can't otherwise afford to survive within such Old
Testament rules, of always giving their government every last spare
cent they've got, or else.

Those good buddy Jews of Hitler's were really smart before, durring
and after the war, and subsequently very well cared for and even
having been made relatively rich at the demise of their own kind and
many others. It's pretty much what history shows they do best, such
as having perpetrated the entire cold war that's merely shifted its
focus against Muslims, and thus still ongoing and still taking those
innocent lives as we speak.

Lost decades and trillions upon trillons of our hard earned loot blown
is their ongoing status quo, and lo and behold it's only getting
worse.
-
Brad Guth

  #6  
Old July 6th 07, 04:05 AM posted to sci.space.history,rec.aviation.military
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,465
Default "The Story Of Peenemunde, Or What Might Have Been"



Rob Arndt wrote:
Furthermore, it is fairly safe to assume that once the Soviets got
Peenemunde that the mysterious "Ghost Rockets" seen over Scandinavia
came from there- secret weapons that were resumed and ones not listed
in that compilation. At least some of those silver streaks in the sky
had to be the longer range V-4s (mistaken in many accounts as probable
extended range V-1s). Not really possible in the short timeframe due
to a complete redesign of the missile for added fuel and more powerful
engine and refined aerodynamics. V-4 was already suited for the job.


Nope, no souped-up V-1s for the Soviets:
http://www.vectorsite.net/twcruz_6.html
Except this one, of course: http://www.vectorsite.net/twcruz_6_02.png
Since that V-4 worked so well, why didn't they put it into service?

Pat

Pat
Rob


  #7  
Old July 6th 07, 11:21 AM posted to sci.space.history,rec.aviation.military
Rob Arndt
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Posts: 82
Default "The Story Of Peenemunde, Or What Might Have Been"


Since that V-4 worked so well, why didn't they put it into service?

Pat


Do you refer to the Soviets or the Germans?

If Soviets, probably due to more advanced designs being developed
postwar.

If Germans, the weapon was barely being tested on Misdroy in 1945
before the war ended. It used a Pabst ramjet and RATO unit launcher
instead of the chemical cylinder for steam launch, so it was more
complicated than the V-1 in operation and Pabst ramjets were in short
supply. V-4 was also more cylindrical and had canards.

If you have seen the Ghost Rocket photos, most of them look like
silver streaks and they definately came from across the Baltic. Where
else do you propose that rocket weapons were being tested other than
Peenemunde and Misdroy?

They were not launched from New Mexico or California!

Rob

  #8  
Old July 6th 07, 07:08 PM posted to sci.space.history,rec.aviation.military
Pat Flannery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,465
Default "The Story Of Peenemunde, Or What Might Have Been"



Rob Arndt wrote:
Since that V-4 worked so well, why didn't they put it into service?

Pat


Do you refer to the Soviets or the Germans?

The Soviets
If Soviets, probably due to more advanced designs being developed
postwar.


They didn't have anything up to the supposed "Horse and Rider" V-4
capability's up till the G-3 design study of 1949:
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/g3.htm.
So if ghost rockets were buzzing Sweden in 1946, they were obviously
something that predated the G-3, but apparently had very similar
capabilities.
Assuming such a thing existed, there was no reason to design the G-3, or
the follow-on EKR: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/ekr.htm
Since they would have had a actual device of these capabilities several
years before.

If Germans, the weapon was barely being tested on Misdroy in 1945
before the war ended. It used a Pabst ramjet and RATO unit launcher
instead of the chemical cylinder for steam launch, so it was more
complicated than the V-1 in operation and Pabst ramjets were in short
supply.


I'll say! They were no doubt all being sequestered for Triebflugel and
Ta-283 construction!
AFAIK, the Pabst ramjet never used on something that was built to be
operational.
As to why they would be in "short supply"... that is a good question, as
they were slightly more complex than a garbage can-style incinerator,
and about the same as a Argus pulsejet.

V-4 was also more cylindrical and had canards.


And you're basing this on what documentation exactly?
Let me guess; the Unicraft models kit, right?:
http://www.geocities.com/unicraftmodels/germ/v4/v4.htm
And Unicraft models is basing it on the drawing on page 132 of Friedrich
Georg's "Hitler's Siegeswaffen, Band 2 Star Wars 1947" and Friedrich
Georg had never heard of the "Horse and Rider" till yours truly
mentioned it to him several years ago, while digging up data on the
Antipodal Bomber project for him.
And that's why yours truly has a autographed copy of that book, and why
I get mentioned and my faulty kerosene filled Nazi atomic bomb design
shows up on 149 of it.
But the design shown for the "Horse-And-Rider" in the book is pure
speculation based on the concept of something ramjet powered being
carried aloft by a V-2; I've never seen a drawing of it, and never
pictured it looking even vaguely like that, but more like a Lippisch P13
ramjet fighter. Our Hermes II missile was probably a direct offshoot of
the design:
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/hermesb1.htm

If you have seen the Ghost Rocket photos, most of them look like
silver streaks and they definately came from across the Baltic. Where
else do you propose that rocket weapons were being tested other than
Peenemunde and Misdroy?


I suspect they were indeed flying something out over the ocean from up
that ways, but I have doubts it was a "V-4"
but more likely something far more mundane: flights of modified V-1s or
flights of captured Me-262s or Ar-234s.
Mention of magnesium possibly being used for the structure is made he
http://www.project1947.com/gr/grchron1.htm
(Which is about the most detailed description of the whole phenomena
I've ever read.)
And that would give a far better strength-to-weight ratio than the
sheet-steel construction of the standard V-1, and therefore greater range.

Pat
  #9  
Old July 13th 07, 01:35 PM posted to sci.space.history,rec.aviation.military
[email protected]
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Posts: 6
Default "The Story Of Peenemunde, Or What Might Have Been"

On Jul 7, 5:08 am, Pat Flannery wrote:
Rob Arndt wrote:
Since that V-4 worked so well, why didn't they put it into service?


Pat



I suspect they were indeed flying something out over the ocean from up
that ways, but I have doubts it was a "V-4"
but more likely something far more mundane: flights of modified V-1s or
flights of captured Me-262s or Ar-234s.
Mention of magnesium possibly being used for the structure is made hehttp://www.project1947.com/gr/grchron1.htm
(Which is about the most detailed description of the whole phenomena
I've ever read.)


Magnesium is the only material that the Germans were self sufficient
on as they have the ore though it takes a frightful amount of
electricity. Witness the magnificent "elektron" magnesium alloy
forgings that German fighter engines were suspended from.


And that would give a far better strength-to-weight ratio than the
sheet-steel construction of the standard V-1, and therefore greater range.


Hitler went 'ballistic' when he heard of A4 had impacted upon sweden;
firstly he had given express order that no A4s were to be fired, for
fear of aggravating Sweden as that country was showing signs of
joining the allies against Germany as a sort of token effort to get
what it could. However the A4 that had been fired was in fact fired
by the Wasserfall team whpo had been given some A4's to help test
their guidance system and didn't know about the order. In the end
Hitler calmed down and was pleased. Swedish fears of V1's and V2's
helped keep them out of the war and the of course Wasserfall/A4
helped. Rumors of a "V4" helped there as well and some suggest it
was a disinformation exercise; though a ramjet powered missile makes
sense given the known vulnerability of the V1 was one reason for
developing the V2.

Disposable, 1 hour life, turbojets were under development at Porche by
Mueller who had left Heinkel to double the range of the Fi.103 V
improve its speed and simplify launches.

A mid course "one time" update control system was also under
development. V1's in any case carried a beacon to triangulate wind
drift and impact points. Initially only 5% or so of missiles carried
this but this was raised to nearly 50%: perhaps an indication that the
Germans were becoming suspiciously aware of the double cross system.



 




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