Dear Obama, American is BANKRUPT. Forget the climate scam.

"First Post" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:33:24 -0800, "klunk"
wrote:



"First Post" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:28:08 -0500, AM wrote:

klunk wrote:
"AM" wrote in message
...
klunk wrote:
and think about the future of your children....







Both my kid's are more worried about the economy right now over all
else.

all the more reason to consider the value of investing in green and
renewable energy sources.... ;-)


Unless it is made in America, and not wind/solar than yes. But *green*
products cost more right now, which makes people shy away from. Back to
people voting with their wallets again.

Wind and solar are not reliable sources of energy.
Nuclear is.

Right now we can't afford the price of going green right now. We need to
build our industry up again. The existing one that is here now.

Indeed. A basic solar panel kit for a home such as the Sunforce 123
Watt Solar Panel Kit (available at Home Depot) costs $8,500.
Residential wind turbines coast from $6,000 for a small one for a very
small home up to $22,000.
Those fancy "green" light bulbs cost as much for one as two four packs
of regular GE or Sylvania incandescants.
For a lot of folks like me that simply must use a full size truck for
their job are looking at roughly $50,000 for a new hybrid truck.

well... I certainly understand how cost-based people place greater
emphasis
on how much is spent up front while caring not in the least about issues
like tco... that's "total cost of ownership"... as it seems unlikely you
are
familiar with such a concept.. which also means you are the target market
for dollar stores because you're perfectly happy spending a dollar per
week
on something that breaks down quickly and needs replacement instead of
spending $20 on something that lasts an entire year and costs a fraction
to
operate.... after all, you place such little value on everything including
your own time that there really is no point in dragging out your misery by
considering any future beyond what you're prepared to accept.... ;-)


Now is definitely not the time to be asking people to throw out that
kind of expense regardless of what you're trying to save.

no... but it IS the time to be granting energy conversion incentives which
will help stimulate the economy and create new jobs while giving the
fledgling industries of today who will become the industrial behemoths of
tomorrow... it certainly makes more sense to do that than to continue to
**** away money on the dying behemoths of today that will just guzzle what
little liquidity is left until they gasp their last breaths and destroy
the
economy in the process....


And to be honest there is no reason to.

actually... if you truly were interested in honesty, you'd realize that
there is every reason to support green and renewable technologies while
there is no reason to continue propping up big oil...

The technology will progress
and continue to become more affordable.

and even more so as government stimulates demand through policies which
encourage growth....

Since the 60s major leaps
have been made in regards to less pollution and a cleaner environment
which virtually everyone is all for. But it didn't happen over night
or even over just a few years.

which would have been even further along if carter's policies were
seriously
heeded and gm hadn't killed their electric car...



People didn't freak and panic over
Californias' air pollution problem as the alarmists do today. Yet
over several years they managed to increase air quality dramatically.
So over the next several years, as green technology becomes more
affordable and practical and the economy eventually comes back as it
always has, then we will see more of the regular working folks invest
in it. In the meantime, people will indeed concentrate more on
putting food on the table, clothes on their kids backs and roofs over
their heads.

the issues go far beyond clean air... and onto making intelligent
investments in the community which will stimulate economic growth while
creating a strong backbone for tomorrow's economy... much like the
investment in a national highway system accomplished after it was built in
the face of exactly the same sort of backwards looking arguments you've
just
forwarded.... ;-)

Yeah yeah sure sure.
The sky is falling and unless everyone does as you say and become
fanatically involved in the enviro movement we're all going to die.

lol.... if the best argument you have for impeding technological progress
while maintaining the status quo until finite resources run dry is to invoke
some chicken little fear, then I'll just have to assume you have no rational
arguments left....



You honestly expect people living in a failed economy with a near
bankrupt government to start gambling with, in a lot of cases, their
life savings because panicky fanatics such as yourself demand it?
If you're wealthy enough to go out and spend 10 or 20 thousand on
green energy for your home or 40 or 50 thousand for a new hybrid or
electric or whatever then more power to you. But for you to act like
people are stupid for simply trying to live and just don't have the
capital to throw around is just sanctimonious condescending bull****.

what I expect is that the transition will occur in the same manner that all
previous transitions in technology occurred.... and I also expect government
play the same role of facilitator as it has throughout history such as in
the case of space exploration and in building national infrastructures.....
and that the early adopters begin in trickles and grow up until the point
where demand grows enough for prices to drop through increased supply from
increased (and improved) manufacturing makes the product more affordable and
attractive to increasing market segments.... which spin off increasing
numbers of cottage industries which then radically change the landscape of
the economy.... after all... would you have ever thought of starting a
mousepad manufacturing business 20 years ago...?.... if you bought or have
been considering a flat panel tv, would you have thought they were an
enormous waste of economic energy investment 10 gears ago when the price
point was still in the 10 grand neighbourhood...?.... if you had invested in
microsnot 20 years ago, how much money would you have today...?...

if you believe I think people are stupid then that's just your own
insecurity reading something I've not stated... in fact, I have enough faith
in my fellow human beings to believe they are intelligent enough to make the
right decisions once they have had an opportunity to objectively examine all
the information on any issue they address.... in cases such as yours, where
you allow yourself to be blinded by emotionally driven biases and just plain
fear and ignorance. I would single out your specific behaviour as plain
stupid... but, the good news is that you have the power to change that and
rise above such limitations... that choice to be stupid is your choice...
and you have no real excuse to be adamant in holding onto it as tightly as
you seem to want to.... ;-)

although... one helpful hint I'll give you is that in order to rise above
such a self-imposed stupidity is to stop thinking that the role of
government is to specifically address your personal issues directly or
immediately... because the government's role is to benefit society as a
whole so that you may not today be able to afford converting to solar
technology this year or next, the following year however, might just end up
being the sweet spot you'll find where you can free yourself forever from
your heating and lighting bills....


But I'm doing my part. Right now I'm using no fossil fuel whatsoever
to heat my home this evening. Just threw another big log on the fire.
All nice and toasty without burning a bit of electricity, gas or oil.

good for you... but wtf does that have to do with the issue of investing in
a manner which doesn't **** away finite economic resources on a finite
energy resource and instead, anticipates a future you know yourself is just
around the corner....?....

"P. Harvey" wrote in message
...
On Feb 23, 10:28 pm, AM wrote:
klunk wrote:
lol... ya... the debt hole dug by republican policy is going to require
not
only as massive an undertaking as will be required to convert to new
technologies... but it will also require sweat equity... which will
have to
overcome the sort of backassward logic you've offered which relies
solely on
the hope that doing the same thing will produce different results....
;-)

It's very simple. When you have spent to your limit on your credit card,
you STOP spending ! And out govt works the same way. We are maxed out
right now. Any more spending is in the red and not sustainable.
For the govt to cut the debt down, they need to STOP spending right now
!! Cut programs, even some that are helping people, and let companies
that don't get it fail. The govt has no business running ANY companies,
thats not their job ! And they have always done it poorly.

Failure is a part of life, yet this current administration, and the last
part of GW's didn't get it. Business way of correcting itself,is that
companies FAIL. No one is guaranteed success at life no matter hard it
can be on some people. Better it be hard on some people than everyone
else. Which is what is happening right now.

Cut taxes, cut spending and the economy will take off. Some will fail,
but the majority and the one's run well run will succeed, and that will
be good for the rest of us. And whats good for big business is good for
the economy and the people as a whole. Our govt is bloated inefficient,
and paying itself at a high and not fair market value rate. It just does
not work.

You ever get hired by a poor person ?

--
AM


Perhaps you want to share your views with the person you're debating
in can.politics, instead of hiding in alt.global.warming where he
can't read them.

lol... he may as well just admit he's too much of a coward to engage in an
honest debate.... his post, thanks for replying to it btw.... is just rife
with nonsensical gibberish not worth addressing anyway because they're just
the same, mindless talking points that reichtoids endlessly circulate and
get hammered on.... ;-)

On Feb 23, 11:40 pm, First Post
wrote:

But I'm doing my part. Right now I'm using no fossil fuel whatsoever
to heat my home this evening. Just threw another big log on the fire.
All nice and toasty without burning a bit of electricity, gas or oil.

Do you harvest the wood from your own property?

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:13:14 -0800 (PST), "P. Harvey"
wrote:

On Feb 23, 10:28*pm, AM wrote:
klunk wrote:
lol... ya... the debt hole dug by republican policy is going to require not
only as massive an undertaking as will be required to convert to new
technologies... but it will also require sweat equity... which will have to
overcome the sort of backassward logic you've offered which relies solely on
the hope that doing the same thing will produce different results.... * ;-)

It's very simple. When you have spent to your limit on your credit card,
you STOP spending ! And out govt works the same way. We are maxed out
right now. Any more spending is in the red and not sustainable.
For the govt to cut the debt down, they need to STOP spending right now
!! Cut programs, even some that are helping people, and let companies
that don't get it fail. The govt has no business running ANY companies,
thats not their job ! And they have always done it poorly.

Failure is a part of life, yet this current administration, and the last
part of GW's didn't get it. Business way of correcting itself,is that
companies FAIL. No one is guaranteed success at life no matter hard it
can be on some people. Better it be hard on some people than everyone
else. Which is what is happening right now.

Cut taxes, cut spending and the economy will take off. Some will fail,
but the majority and the one's run well run will succeed, and that will
be good for the rest of us. And whats good for big business is good for
the economy and the people as a whole. Our govt is bloated inefficient,
and paying itself at a high and not fair market value rate. It just does
not work.

You ever get hired by a poor person ?

--
AM


Perhaps you want to share your views with the person you're debating
in can.politics, instead of hiding in alt.global.warming where he
can't read them.

He posted his response to alt.global.warming so why wouldn't he be
able to read the responses of others?

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 03:13:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Feb 23, 11:40 pm, First Post
wrote:

But I'm doing my part. Right now I'm using no fossil fuel whatsoever
to heat my home this evening. Just threw another big log on the fire.
All nice and toasty without burning a bit of electricity, gas or oil.

Do you harvest the wood from your own property?

Here and from neighbors property with their full permission.
Doesn't really make any difference as long as it's done legally.

On 2/24/10 7:24 AM, First Post wrote:
Doesn't really make any difference as long as it's done legally.

There is a lot of activity that's legal... but damages society
and/or the planet as a whole.

klunk wrote:
Now is definitely not the time to be asking people to throw out that
kind of expense regardless of what you're trying to save.

no... but it IS the time to be granting energy conversion incentives
which will help stimulate the economy and create new jobs while
giving the fledgling industries of today who will become the
industrial behemoths of tomorrow... it certainly makes more sense to
do that than to continue to **** away money on the dying behemoths of
today that will just guzzle what little liquidity is left until they
gasp their last breaths and destroy the economy in the process....


And to be honest there is no reason to.

actually... if you truly were interested in honesty, you'd realize
that there is every reason to support green and renewable
technologies while there is no reason to continue propping up big
oil...
The technology will progress
and continue to become more affordable.

and even more so as government stimulates demand through policies
which encourage growth....


The government cannot 'stimulate demand', they can only manipulate
production. If people don't want CFLs, they don't. Only by subsidising CFLs
and artificially driving the price down will more people buy them, but only
because the supply has been manipulated by government interference in the
market. 'Growth' is supply, not demand. And this goverment stimulated
'growth' can only be accomplished by destroying something else.

On Feb 24, 6:24*pm, Peter Muehlbauer
wrote:

Fascinating. *Only heat in summer is an indicator of climate. *Cold in
winter doesn't count. *The logic is SOOOO impenetrable.

I just read on a national meteorological website (DMI) that off
Florida and the Mexican Gulf the coral is literally dying from the
unusually cold seas.

Here today. Gone tomorrow.

That's weather for you. ;-)

Have you noticed that only the developed world is suffering from
extreme cold?

This suggests that the "authorities" are finally placing the blame
with the real perps. :-)

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:25:32 -0600, Sam Wormley
wrote:

On 2/23/10 10:13 PM, I M @ good guy wrote:
And please stop the diversions from the
fact that there have not been more extreme
temperatures recently...


What has happened in Brazil this month?


Brazil is not the globe.

On 2/24/2010 1:53 PM, Peter Muehlbauer wrote:
"I M @ good guy" wrote:

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:25:32 -0600, Sam Wormley
wrote:

On 2/23/10 10:13 PM, I M @ good guy wrote:
And please stop the diversions from the
fact that there have not been more extreme
temperatures recently...


What has happened in Brazil this month?


Brazil is not the globe.

Nor is this month or more exactly this certain day.

But it's always funny to give Sam a tour pulling his nose ring.
And this is globally.

Look at Hugo Chavez in Venezuela!