Vision of the three Rs: Regular, Reliable and Reusable

On 16 Feb 2007 12:16:55 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Eric Chomko"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such
a way as to indicate that:

Set up a water depot in LEO, and guarantee to purchase at least 1000
tons/year from the lowest bidder to actually deliver, but with a price
cap set initially just barely within reach of current launchers. Then
lower the price cap each year for ten years, to drive continual progress.

In other words - pork and handouts.

No, handouts are when you give the money with no service provided.
You know, like X-33?

So Rand, who is the big culprit WRT the X-33, NASA or Lock-Mart?

Yes.

On Feb 16, 3:32 pm, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
On 16 Feb 2007 12:16:55 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Eric Chomko"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such
a way as to indicate that:

Set up a water depot in LEO, and guarantee to purchase at least 1000
tons/year from the lowest bidder to actually deliver, but with a price
cap set initially just barely within reach of current launchers. Then
lower the price cap each year for ten years, to drive continual progress.

In other words - pork and handouts.

No, handouts are when you give the money with no service provided.
You know, like X-33?

So Rand, who is the big culprit WRT the X-33, NASA or Lock-Mart?

Yes.

I take it you mean both.

Seems to me that SpaceX and Kistler could and should benefit by the
X-33 debacle.

In article ,
(Derek Lyons) wrote:

Set up a water depot in LEO, and guarantee to purchase at least 1000
tons/year from the lowest bidder to actually deliver, but with a price
cap set initially just barely within reach of current launchers. Then
lower the price cap each year for ten years, to drive continual progress.

In other words - pork and handouts.

No, when you give somebody something in exchange for nothing, we call
that a "handout." When you give somebody something exchange for goods
and services, we call that a "purchase."

Further, "pork" is projects tied to particular congressional districts.
That doesn't apply here either.

Hang in there; English can be very useful once you've mastered the
nuances.

Joe Strout wrote:

:In article ,
: (Derek Lyons) wrote:
:
: Set up a water depot in LEO, and guarantee to purchase at least 1000
: tons/year from the lowest bidder to actually deliver, but with a price
: cap set initially just barely within reach of current launchers. Then
: lower the price cap each year for ten years, to drive continual progress.
:
: In other words - pork and handouts.
:
:No, when you give somebody something in exchange for nothing, we call
:that a "handout." When you give somebody something exchange for goods
:and services, we call that a "purchase."

And when you 'purchase' something you don't need and have no use for
just to provide money to the seller, you're back to 'handout'.

--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

h (Rand Simberg) wrote:

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:14:12 GMT, in a place far, far away,
(Derek Lyons) made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

What would be the best way to accomplish this? A half dozen, ten ton
payload, frequent flyer flybacks, or a couple of heavys with a two
month turnaround?

Set up a water depot in LEO, and guarantee to purchase at least 1000
tons/year from the lowest bidder to actually deliver, but with a price
cap set initially just barely within reach of current launchers. Then
lower the price cap each year for ten years, to drive continual progress.

In other words - pork and handouts.

No, handouts are when you give the money with no service provided.

Buying something for which demand exists (beyond a future handwaving
one) amounts to the same thing - giving away money in exchange for
token services.

Huh?

That should have been 'for which no demand exists'.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

Joe Strout wrote:

In article ,
(Derek Lyons) wrote:

Set up a water depot in LEO, and guarantee to purchase at least 1000
tons/year from the lowest bidder to actually deliver, but with a price
cap set initially just barely within reach of current launchers. Then
lower the price cap each year for ten years, to drive continual progress.

In other words - pork and handouts.

No, when you give somebody something in exchange for nothing, we call
that a "handout." When you give somebody something exchange for goods
and services, we call that a "purchase."

Well, since neither definition applies in this instance... What you
_you_ call the Government purchasing something for which it has no
discernible need in order to provide money to someone that it cannot
provide money to through the usual (legal) methods and channels?

Until you provide a definition, 'pork and handouts' will do nicely.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:28:54 GMT, in a place far, far away,
(Derek Lyons) made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

Set up a water depot in LEO, and guarantee to purchase at least 1000
tons/year from the lowest bidder to actually deliver, but with a price
cap set initially just barely within reach of current launchers. Then
lower the price cap each year for ten years, to drive continual progress.

In other words - pork and handouts.

No, handouts are when you give the money with no service provided.

Buying something for which demand exists (beyond a future handwaving
one) amounts to the same thing - giving away money in exchange for
token services.

Huh?

That should have been 'for which no demand exists'.

But demand can be easily created. Water in space is useful.

NASA is already purchasing space services. We propose only that they
propose useful ones, that actually have a chance of reducing costs of
space access, and orbital operations.

On Feb 16, 5:03 pm, (Rand Simberg)
wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:28:54 GMT, in a place far, far away,
(Derek Lyons) made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:





Set up a water depot in LEO, and guarantee to purchase at least 1000
tons/year from the lowest bidder to actually deliver, but with a price
cap set initially just barely within reach of current launchers. Then
lower the price cap each year for ten years, to drive continual progress.

In other words - pork and handouts.

No, handouts are when you give the money with no service provided.

Buying something for which demand exists (beyond a future handwaving
one) amounts to the same thing - giving away money in exchange for
token services.

Huh?

That should have been 'for which no demand exists'.

But demand can be easily created. Water in space is useful.

NASA is already purchasing space services. We propose only that they
propose useful ones, that actually have a chance of reducing costs of
space access, and orbital operations.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thank you Rand, your reply is a thing of beauty.

To counter the cry of 'pork, handouts and handwaving!', water should
be limited to less than half of yearly payloads and even then mostly
as ballast... to top off the throw weight of a standard RLV that will
often outmatch its cargo.
Just as important will be the electrolysis and liquification
hardware. Cooling and storing H2 and O should be easier given the
temperature of space and vacuum for the thermous effect. Actually
generating and using the 'sweet combination' is key. Deadweight water
is DOA. A split and store facility is a significant undertaking, but
it is the only way that the advantage of boosting reactants in reacted
form can be made palatable.

Using H2 for a manned moon landing, then people to mars, is the
present vision. Building the infrastructure for economic access to
earth space and beyond, facilitating robotic expeditions, space
telescopes, life science and commertial possibilities strikes me as a
better investment.

h (Rand Simberg) wrote:

:On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:28:54 GMT, in a place far, far away,
(Derek Lyons) made the phosphor on my monitor glow
:in such a way as to indicate that:
:
:Set up a water depot in LEO, and guarantee to purchase at least 1000
:tons/year from the lowest bidder to actually deliver, but with a price
:cap set initially just barely within reach of current launchers. Then
:lower the price cap each year for ten years, to drive continual progress.
:
:In other words - pork and handouts.
:
:No, handouts are when you give the money with no service provided.
:
:Buying something for which demand exists (beyond a future handwaving
:one) amounts to the same thing - giving away money in exchange for
:token services.
:
:Huh?
:
:That should have been 'for which no demand exists'.
:
:But demand can be easily created. Water in space is useful.

And yet every space station that ever was has a problem getting rid of
the stuff.

Hint: You don't try to 'create demand'. You service the ones that
exist and let the new ones come as they will.

--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw

On Feb 16, 8:07 pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
(Rand Simberg) wrote:

:On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:28:54 GMT, in a place far, far away,
(Derek Lyons) made the phosphor on my monitor glow
:in such a way as to indicate that:
:
:Set up a water depot in LEO, and guarantee to purchase at least 1000
:tons/year from the lowest bidder to actually deliver, but with a price
:cap set initially just barely within reach of current launchers. Then
:lower the price cap each year for ten years, to drive continual progress.
:
:In other words - pork and handouts.
:
:No, handouts are when you give the money with no service provided.
:
:Buying something for which demand exists (beyond a future handwaving
:one) amounts to the same thing - giving away money in exchange for
:token services.
:
:Huh?
:
:That should have been 'for which no demand exists'.
:
:But demand can be easily created. Water in space is useful.

And yet every space station that ever was has a problem getting rid of
the stuff.

Over a thousand gallons per year are required for each crew member,
that would be over fifty million dollars/year if it could only be used
once through. The ISS does a pretty good job of recycling wash water,
breath, sweat and urine.

Hint: You don't try to 'create demand'. You service the ones that
exist and let the new ones come as they will.

Hint: You 'create demand' to run down the cost of service, new ones
won't come unless we will it.

"....all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw