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"Scientific" Dreams Of Travel To Stars Shattered: Mysterious Force Pulls Back NASA Probe In Deep Space



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 6th 06, 11:26 AM posted to alt.messianic,alt.atheism,alt.society.liberalism,rec.arts.sf.written,sci.space.policy
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Default "Scientific" Dreams Of Travel To Stars Shattered: Mysterious Force Pulls Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

Stephen Knight wrote:
Interesting. Your god apparently likes to mess with space probes
more than stopping the slaughter of six million Jews, feeding starving
babies or stopping violent crime.


Well, since these space probes are apparently being stopped by an
invisible hand, either it's God, or we'll have to blame Adam Smith for
it!

John Savard

  #22  
Old October 6th 06, 11:32 AM posted to alt.messianic,alt.atheism,alt.society.liberalism,rec.arts.sf.written,sci.space.policy
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Default "Scientific" Dreams Of Travel To Stars Shattered: Mysterious Force Pulls Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

Sound of Trumpet quoted:
The team
says no current theories explain why the force stays constant: all the
most plausible forces, from gravity to the effect of solar radiation,
decrease rapidly with distance.


It's certainly true that the force of the Sun's gravity on these space
probes would diminish at the rate of 1/(r^2); however, the
gravitational force of the Oort cloud only begins to diminish at that
rate _once one is no longer *inside* the Oort cloud_.

Hence, eliminating gravity seems to be premature.

Also, how was it determined that the motions of these space probes had
been disturbed?

Was it solely by radar echoes and time delays of signals to and from
the probes? I suspect that is likely; such a small deviation, barely
detectable by those means, would not be detectable by triangulation.

So, it's possible that the speed of light in a _true_ vacuum, as found
in distant space, is just faster than the speed of light in the vacuums
we can make and measure light in upon Earth! I'll admit that's
unlikely, but the results don't really eliminate that alternate
possibility either.

John Savard

  #23  
Old October 6th 06, 11:47 AM posted to alt.messianic,alt.atheism,alt.society.liberalism,rec.arts.sf.written,sci.space.policy
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Default "Scientific" Dreams Of Travel To Stars Shattered: Mysterious Force Pulls Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

Joe Strout wrote:
How can you read about an acceleration of 6 mph
per century, and not see that this would be absolutely no impediment to
interstellar travel?


Well, if one is looking for something to beat the infidels over the
head with, one might not read carefully.

However, let's not get *too* hasty here.

A space probe travelling at 6 mph would take more than a century to
reach Alpha Centauri. Therefore, this force clearly would be an
impediment to interstellar travel by space probes on ballistic
trajectories travelling at slow speeds.

Light travels at 186,000 miles per second. So Alpha Centauri is about
25,000,000,000,000 miles away.

Let's imagine a space probe which begins from a standing start at the
position of our solar system, undergoing an acceleration of 6 mph per
century. To get the units right, that will be 5,256,000 miles per
century squared. So, at the end of one century, it will have covered
2,628,000 miles, according to the formula (1/2)a(t^2).

Such a space probe will have been travelling for 3,084 centuries before
reaching Alpha Centauri.

Thus, when it reaches Alpha Centauri, it will be travelling at about
18,000 miles per hour - therefore, reaching the stars with a space
probe accelerated to that velocity (say by "gravitational propulsion" -
an encounter with Jupiter) is indeed prevented by such a force.

However, 18,000 miles per hour _is_ rather slow even by current
standards of space travel, so it _is_ true that this force doesn't
prevent interstellar travel.

John Savard

  #24  
Old October 6th 06, 01:11 PM posted to alt.messianic,alt.atheism,alt.society.liberalism,rec.arts.sf.written,sci.space.policy
2738 Dead
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Default "Scientific" Dreams Of Travel To Stars Shattered: Mysterious Force Pulls Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 04:31:17 GMT, (Henry Spencer)
wrote:

In article ,
Orval Fairbairn wrote:
A space probe launched 30 years ago has come under the influence of a
force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the laws of
physics...


Could it be fluid dynamic drag, due to traveling through the miniscule
solar atmosphere way out there? There is, after all, some interstellar
gas there.


Not enough -- by multiple orders of magnitude -- to have a detectable
effect, even one this small. Not via known mechanisms of drag, anyway.

There is currently some work underway (note that the quoted news report is
several years old) to try to define exactly what *direction* the
mysterious force is acting in: toward Earth, toward the Sun, along the
antenna axis, or against the direction of motion. (These are similar but
not quite identical directions.) This could reveal the general nature of
what's going on:

+ Toward Earth would almost certainly mean that the "force" is actually
some kind of error in the tracking or data analysis.

+ Toward the Sun would probably mean new (gravitational?) physics.

+ Along the antenna axis would almost certainly mean some kind of
engineering issue, like gas leakage or photon thrust from radiated heat.
Because the spacecraft spins around the antenna axis, most any force
produced by the spacecraft acts, on average, along that axis. Thrust from
radiated heat is a particularly contentious issue because modeling where
all the radiated heat goes is tricky; not everybody is convinced that this
explanation has been thoroughly ruled out.

+ Against the direction of motion would probably mean some kind of drag,
although heaven knows what would be doing it.


Why, it must the the aether!
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  #25  
Old October 6th 06, 02:02 PM posted to alt.messianic,alt.atheism,alt.society.liberalism,rec.arts.sf.written,sci.space.policy
Mark K. Bilbo
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Default "Scientific" Dreams Of Travel To Stars Shattered: MysteriousForce Pulls Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 15:37:43 -0700, Sound of Trumpet wrote:

he speed of the two probes is being
changed by about 6 mph per century - a barely-perceptible effect about
10 billion times weaker than gravity.


And how does that "shatter" dreams of interstellar travel?

An old Ford Pinto firing on one cylinder has enough energy to over come a
force *that weak...

--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]

http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC

"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
  #26  
Old October 6th 06, 03:16 PM posted to alt.messianic,alt.atheism,alt.society.liberalism,rec.arts.sf.written,sci.space.policy
Mark K. Bilbo
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Default "Scientific" Dreams Of Travel To Stars Shattered: MysteriousForce Pulls Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 23:11:49 -0400, jonathan wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...
raven1 wrote:
And your point is...?


Not that the probe has discovered where the dark matter starts... no,
but instead that when C. S. Lewis wrote about "God's quarantine
regulations", he didn't know the half of it!

God knows how clever humans are at getting around limits. After all, He
destroyed the Tower of Babel.

"Heaven, even the heavens, are Gods; the Earth He has given to the
children of men" - and so the probe is just now bumping into the
firmament!

Those Weekly World News stories about the Hubble Space Telescope taking
pictures of angels in Heaven, while perhaps not true, are, apparently,
not utterly implausible.




Interstellar travel is a waste of time, the only thing 'out there'
is the past.


Um... what?

--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]

http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC

"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
  #27  
Old October 6th 06, 03:16 PM posted to alt.messianic,alt.atheism,alt.society.liberalism,rec.arts.sf.written,sci.space.policy
Mark K. Bilbo
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Posts: 211
Default "Scientific" Dreams Of Travel To Stars Shattered: MysteriousForce Pulls Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:53:42 -0600, Joe Strout wrote:

This is really exciting research. If the effect is real, it could
indicate the need for revision our theories of gravity -- and that, in
turn, is likely to have repercussions on other theories (dark matter
comes immediately to mind).

However, what's really astonishing is the level of ignorance required to
read this article, and then type a subject line like "Dreams Of Travel
To Stars Shattered". How can you read about an acceleration of 6 mph
per century, and not see that this would be absolutely no impediment to
interstellar travel?


Because he's so dense, he actually bends rays of light...

--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]

http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC

"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
  #28  
Old October 6th 06, 03:19 PM posted to alt.messianic,alt.atheism,alt.society.liberalism,rec.arts.sf.written,sci.space.policy
Mark K. Bilbo
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Posts: 211
Default "Scientific" Dreams Of Travel To Stars Shattered: MysteriousForce Pulls Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 05:11:38 -0700, 2738 Dead wrote:

On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 04:31:17 GMT, (Henry Spencer)
wrote:

In article ,
Orval Fairbairn wrote:
A space probe launched 30 years ago has come under the influence of a
force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the laws of
physics...

Could it be fluid dynamic drag, due to traveling through the miniscule
solar atmosphere way out there? There is, after all, some interstellar
gas there.


Not enough -- by multiple orders of magnitude -- to have a detectable
effect, even one this small. Not via known mechanisms of drag, anyway.

There is currently some work underway (note that the quoted news report is
several years old) to try to define exactly what *direction* the
mysterious force is acting in: toward Earth, toward the Sun, along the
antenna axis, or against the direction of motion. (These are similar but
not quite identical directions.) This could reveal the general nature of
what's going on:

+ Toward Earth would almost certainly mean that the "force" is actually
some kind of error in the tracking or data analysis.

+ Toward the Sun would probably mean new (gravitational?) physics.

+ Along the antenna axis would almost certainly mean some kind of
engineering issue, like gas leakage or photon thrust from radiated heat.
Because the spacecraft spins around the antenna axis, most any force
produced by the spacecraft acts, on average, along that axis. Thrust from
radiated heat is a particularly contentious issue because modeling where
all the radiated heat goes is tricky; not everybody is convinced that this
explanation has been thoroughly ruled out.

+ Against the direction of motion would probably mean some kind of drag,
although heaven knows what would be doing it.


Why, it must the the aether!


No, silly, it's bumping into angels!

--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]

http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC

"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
  #29  
Old October 6th 06, 03:20 PM posted to alt.messianic,alt.atheism,alt.society.liberalism,rec.arts.sf.written,sci.space.policy
The Hurkle Beast
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Posts: 8
Default "Scientific" Dreams Of Travel To Stars Shattered: Mysterious Force Pulls Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

"Gene Ward Smith" wrote in message
ps.com...

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

Could it be fluid dynamic drag, due to traveling through the

miniscule
solar atmosphere way out there? There is, after all, some

interstellar
gas there.


What about cold dark matter?


Isn't that one of the new Prismacolor selections?

  #30  
Old October 6th 06, 06:46 PM posted to alt.messianic,alt.atheism,alt.society.liberalism,rec.arts.sf.written,sci.space.policy
Eric Chomko
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Posts: 2,630
Default "Scientific" Dreams Of Travel To Stars Shattered: Mysterious Force Pulls Back NASA Probe In Deep Space


Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:53:42 -0600, Joe Strout wrote:

This is really exciting research. If the effect is real, it could
indicate the need for revision our theories of gravity -- and that, in
turn, is likely to have repercussions on other theories (dark matter
comes immediately to mind).

However, what's really astonishing is the level of ignorance required to
read this article, and then type a subject line like "Dreams Of Travel
To Stars Shattered". How can you read about an acceleration of 6 mph
per century, and not see that this would be absolutely no impediment to
interstellar travel?


Because he's so dense, he actually bends rays of light...


Don't call him a star. Perhaps a neutron star or black hole but not a
star...


--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]

http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC

"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com


 




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