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... OIL has Doubled in One Year! $120 bbl While NASA Dreams of Moon Rocks!



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 9th 08, 01:01 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,alt.talk.weather,sci.military.naval,alt.global-warming
jonathan[_3_]
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Default ... OIL has Doubled in One Year! $120 bbl While NASA Dreams of Moon Rocks!


"Totorkon" wrote in message
...


I don't see any evidence of broad public support.


The public hasn't been given a chance to have a say
on the matter. But they have spoken on going back to the
moon, and it's rather negative. And being a Texas oilman, it
seems rather obvious why Bush would want the entire concept
of SSP to just go away. Have you heard any senior NASA official
even mention the word in the last seven years?

I think the term 'banished' best fits current policy on SPS.



When I first read about SPSs, the comparative limitations of
terrestrial solar power stood out. It requires storage, heliostats,
two to three times the area and PV modules and material structure to
resist wind and gravity. That was back when the aerospace giants and
SPS enthusiasts believed the cost to leo would be around $25/lb.



Considering virtually NO money has been spent of SSP research, and
yet some are already presenting concepts where directly solar pumped
lasers replace microwaves, and rectenna sizes as small as three
meters, about the size of a car. If some real research money were
dedicated who knows what advances might happen?

Switching to SSP means NASA would have to spend all that
moon-money on low cost to orbit. Does the new hardware
give even a rat's-ass about low cost to orbit?


The best that I hope for......


That sentiment is NASA's middle name these days.

Unless the folks inside NASA grow a backbone, and start ADVISING
the White House, instead of just following the party line, then we'll
have to endure another wasted generation or two of half-ass goals
and half-ass funding.

I mean how much have we really accomplished since Apollo?
I don't see any reason why the next twenty or thirty years
will be any different given the current goal.

s





  #22  
Old May 9th 08, 01:03 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,alt.talk.weather,sci.military.naval,alt.global-warming
Poetic Justice
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Default ... OIL has Doubled in One Year! $120 bbl While NASA Dreams ofMoon Rocks!

Richard Casady wrote:
On Thu, 8 May 2008 17:40:51 -0400, "Scott Hedrick"
wrote:

"Lloyd" wrote in message
...
What happened to Bush's promise in 2000 to use his connections with
the Saudis to keep oil prices down?

It's *working*. The demand has skyrocketed, particularly because of China.
We should have seen these prices years ago.


Yes, China. I wish the US didn't do business with them: they don't
like us and the leadership are scum.
I think China has quite a bit of coal. They do have a place with a
seam of coal three hundred feet thick. If they have the coal, they can
get by without oil if they have to.

As can the US, we have vast quantities of the coal and a fair ammount
of oil. Canada has vast ammounts of tar sands. I believe they are
developing them as fast as they can. They hired all of the available
trained labor. They will sell us oil if we have the dough. We would
rather give them the money than the arabs, who mostly hate us.

I wonder how high the price can go.


High enough that Al Gore will be the only one to fill his Lear Jet.

  #23  
Old May 9th 08, 01:03 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,alt.talk.weather,sci.military.naval,alt.global-warming
Poetic Justice
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Default ... OIL has Doubled in One Year! $120 bbl While NASA Dreams ofMoon Rocks!

Scott Hedrick wrote:
"Lloyd" wrote in message
...


What happened to Bush's promise in 2000 to use his connections with
the Saudis to keep oil prices down?


Hey I can use my connections to sell you a bridge....

It's *working*. The demand has skyrocketed, particularly because of China.
We should have seen these prices years ago.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **


  #24  
Old May 9th 08, 01:13 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,alt.talk.weather,sci.military.naval,alt.global-warming
jonathan[_3_]
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Default ... OIL has Doubled in One Year! $120 bbl While NASA Dreams of Moon Rocks!


"BradGuth" wrote in message
...
Forgot to mention, it's an oil and blood sucking sprint to the
finish. WWIII will just be another reminder that our "no child left
behind" as our national policy of being dumbfounded past the point of
no return, has been working like a charm.
.. - Brad Guth


And just yesterday I heard somewhere that with the summer demand
picking up steam, we can expect gas prices to go up five to ten cents
....per week...for a while.

It's rather easy to see when a system is nearing it's breaking or tipping
point. When a normally minor change in a basic variable results in
unusually large effects, cascading to other related systems...that's
when the point is approaching.

For instance, the latest increases in oil prices set off rapid
inflation in food prices and shortages around the world.
We can expect each new round of increases to have
ever larger effects throughout our economy.
And most importantly, the effects are not only out of proportion
(non-linear) to the cause, but unpredictable to boot.

I think it's pretty easy to argue we're getting to a critical point
and fast.

Wait until the new administration takes office. We'll all be
shocked at just how much this administration has covered
up one problem after another. For the sake of our security.




On May 7, 1:18 pm, BradGuth wrote:
The scammy likes of “Williamknowsbest” (aka William Mook) isn’t
fooling anyone by his “I have two facilities under construction in
Indonesia that each are planned to produce 200,000 barrels per day. I
am selling 20 forward contracts from each of the two facilities that
are under constrution in Indonesia.” Besides the obvious misspelled/
typo “constrution”, notice as to the “each are planned to produce”
qualifier, or rather disqualifier. Otherwise, what is it about an
offshore investment in Indonesia that can be trusted any better than a
line of supposed credit with the Bank of Nigeria?

According to lord Mook and his DARPA friends; Anyplace on Earth
becomes livable and otherwise survivable if you can afford it. Well
lo and behold, that seems to be the prevailing problem for most of us
that can’t hardly afford to keep what we’ve got, much less obtain
whatever’s necessary for tomorrow. It’s gotten way past whatever pay-
back time, and it’s not looking good if the likes of private
competitive energy is not being allowed to emerge, or much less given
public incentives for their R&D efforts by way of matching dollars.
What we’re stuck with is having to import finished fuel products
because our oil and coal refinery cartel is either ENRON sick beyond
the point of no return, or sticking with their New World Order as
their one and only plan of action.

However, no matters how rich and powerful you are, it takes fire to
fight fire, mostly in the form of many ICEs burning off loads of
fossil derived energy that’s getting spendier and even bloodier by the
hour. Electrical powered technology, unless using RTGs or via synfuel
along with h2o2 created, stored and distributed by way of renewable
energy that’s in surplus, isn’t going to fight any significant fire
for long. Perhaps creating a multitude of km tall water towers, say
at least one for each and every 100 square miles that could also be
used as terrific solar energy collectors, as well as each hosting a
250 meter diameter wind turbine would start to make sense.

On May 7, 7:56 am, (G=EMC^2 Glazier) wrote:

Jeff If all I had was my dog Rudy I would be a happy camper. Got my
conversion van up to snuff. You know Progress Energy Mafia over billed
me to the tune of 750 bucks, and will not pay this fraudulent bill. Will
be turning my water off this week. Even a mother just having a baby that
needs warm bath water they would leave with no power.(Claire Recinello)
What chance do I have. Progress Energy billing is fraudulent as proven
by chanel 9 news Instead of returning $146,000,000 they are with the
help of Florida Governor Charie Crist making people like me pay these
overcharged bills. I wonder if Charlie Crist might let these Mafia
owned utilities break my legs if they are not paid? It fits. Charlie
Crist will make Osceola sheriff "Bob' Hansel the Florida Attorney
General. A sheriff that can get away with threatening lives and taking
away a citizen's first amendment rights is the right man for that job
Oh ya Bert


I take it you and others of your kind are not happy campers about
joining up with the New World Order, of pandering and otherwise brown-
nosing to those in charge of our 3200% fossil energy inflation in the
past 60 years, and of most everything else made ENRON and Federal
Reserve cartel exclusive, and for the rest of us simply over-priced to
the point where only the rich and powerful can afford their water, gas
and electrical overhead along with their $5/gallon fuel.

Doing the last year's worth of crude oil profits alone, at $60 extra
per barrel with no real increase in their process of extracting that
oil, whereas if anything via technology, automation and labor
efficiency improvements it's taking less overall human effort to
extract each crude barrel of oil (even from oily sand).

$60 * gross oil barrels = net extra profits within just the last
year.
$60 * 31e9 = $1860e9 ($1.86 trillion in surplus profit for 2008)

As I'd said, this doesn't even include any portion of their previously
established profit margins of past years, or the ongoing secondary
cost impacts and thus collateral inflation upon most everything else
(such as water), not to forget those having died and others dieing as
a direct result of such energy profit takings. In total we’re looking
at having to fork out at least an extra $3 trillion in just the last
year alone, and likely $5 trillion for this next inflated year whereas
consumer products, food, housing and services manage to catch up to
their previous plus recent impact of their having to do business with
such artificially higher cost of energy and water.

Expect those pesky energy and food riots, plus a whole lot worse
things to come, just like having been orchestrated by the mostly
Semitic Third Reich DARPA and by those brown-nosed minions of their
faith-based puppeteers in charge of squeezing your private parts.
Soon enough, the final straw may come when beer cost $12 per 6-pack,
cup of joe at $5 and road fuel running $10/gallon (private aviation
fuel with local and federal tax and airport usage surcharge is likely
to hit that $10 mark within the year), then what?
. - Brad Guth

On May 6, 6:17 pm, "jonathan" wrote:



I'M MAD AS HELL......


It's just insane. Oil was as low as $8 a barrel under Pres Clinton.
It increased by $60 a barrel just in the /last year/.


Let's just extrapolate that price increase out a few years, to...say...about
the
time NASA gets to kick around a few more Moon Rocks in the year 2025
give or take ten?


I wonder how history will remember this time, when we had a choice between a
New Moon Base, or the Space Solar Power (SSP) program axed by President
Bush upon taking office.


This is what history will say I believe.


Everyone will be looking at our new shiny moon base much like we see
the ISS now. Doing /nothing/ except consume every available dollar just
to keep the thing flying. And they'll say it's clear the choice for the moon
over SSP was a result of two things.


The military: seeking the 'high ground' in the missile defense race.


Corruption: the big contractors preferring another "Bridge to Nowhere"
As they can promise NOTHING in return for the mega-bucks.
They haven't promised to cure anything, fix anything
or create anything beneficial to the taxpayers except
for the 'thing' itself Another ISS, existing only for the
sake of it. "Have Faith" The NASA administrator says...


There can be no other conclusion, that amidst a new global consensus
and awakening on the rapidly warming earth, we abandoned a visionary
long-term program, Space Solar Power, that could revolutionize
the future of this planet. A program that could not only address the
rapidly diminishing oil reserves, but also tackle greenhouse gasses
and global warming.


A single program, Space Solar Power, that could directly effect two of
greatest global threats. Not to mention all that flows from these
two threats, such as wars over oil, economic growth and national
security.


This was the program timeline when Bush canceled SSP


Space Solar Power Exploratory Research and Technology program (SERT)


a.. 2005: ~100 kW, Free-flyer, demo-scale commercial space
b.. 2010: ~100 kW Planetary Surface System, demo-scale, space exploration
c.. 2015: ~10 MW Free-flyer, Transportation; Large demo, solar clipper
d.. 2020: 1 GW Free-flyer, Full-scale solar power satellite commercial
spacehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Solar_Power_Exploratory_Research_a...


By the time we build that shiny now Moon Base, The United States
...could've been building gigawatt class power satellites...we
...could have been on the threshold of becoming the next energy "Saudi
Arabia".


Where ...America is the primary source of energy for the world.


But no, the military needs a new observation post, to target the Chinese.


Are we living in an era of denial, insanity or stupidity?


I can't think of any other reason for the choice we're making
to go back to the moon instead of using NASA not just to study
the atmosphere, but to be the agency responsible for ...improving it
as well.


Hey, you NASA guys want larger budgets??? SSP is the path to
long term public and Congressional support.


A Moon Base is a recipe for a much smaller-leaner NASA.
Stripped to the bones by a public angry that NASA's
..lack of foresight is exceeded only by it's
..lack of backbone.


Jonathan


s


BTW, my LSE-CM/ISS is still technically doable, as are the expeditions
of Venus, and if need be setting up POOF City at Venus L2.

I've top posted for the benefit of others.
. - BG



  #25  
Old May 9th 08, 01:25 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,alt.talk.weather,sci.military.naval,alt.global-warming
Andrew Swallow[_3_]
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Posts: 83
Default ... OIL has Doubled in One Year! $120 bbl While NASA Dreams ofMoon Rocks!

jonathan wrote:
[snip]


Considering virtually NO money has been spent of SSP research, and
yet some are already presenting concepts where directly solar pumped
lasers replace microwaves, and rectenna sizes as small as three
meters, about the size of a car. If some real research money were
dedicated who knows what advances might happen?


The world has a population of several billion people so giving every
one their own SSP satellite would require several billion satellite,
that is not going to happen. Consequently SSP satellites have to be
city sized.

The solar power collected by the SSP satellite needs converting for
downloading. On the Earth a gigantic receiver is needed - the size
of a city. (A small receiver on every roof is still the size of a city,
it just has wasteful holes in it.) That receiver will be lucky to get
as much power as solar cells at the same location.

The advantage SSP has over Earth solar cells and solar thermal is
that it works at night. Pity we use less electricity at night.
(Offices and factories close at night.)

If you want to help the world build wind farms, solar power towers,
terrestrial solar electric panels and add a solar thermal water heating
system to your roof. Forget SSP.

Andrew Swallow
  #26  
Old May 9th 08, 04:14 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,alt.talk.weather,sci.military.naval,alt.global-warming
BradGuth
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Posts: 21,544
Default ... OIL has Doubled in One Year! $120 bbl While NASA Dreams ofMoon Rocks!

On May 8, 5:25 pm, Andrew Swallow wrote:
jonathan wrote:

[snip]



Considering virtually NO money has been spent of SSP research, and
yet some are already presenting concepts where directly solar pumped
lasers replace microwaves, and rectenna sizes as small as three
meters, about the size of a car. If some real research money were
dedicated who knows what advances might happen?


The world has a population of several billion people so giving every
one their own SSP satellite would require several billion satellite,
that is not going to happen. Consequently SSP satellites have to be
city sized.

The solar power collected by the SSP satellite needs converting for
downloading. On the Earth a gigantic receiver is needed - the size
of a city. (A small receiver on every roof is still the size of a city,
it just has wasteful holes in it.) That receiver will be lucky to get
as much power as solar cells at the same location.

The advantage SSP has over Earth solar cells and solar thermal is
that it works at night. Pity we use less electricity at night.
(Offices and factories close at night.)

If you want to help the world build wind farms, solar power towers,
terrestrial solar electric panels and add a solar thermal water heating
system to your roof. Forget SSP.

Andrew Swallow


Good for telling it like it is. Another good thing you're not up
against William Mook, our resident PV wizard.

However, perhaps my 1.2 TW SSP that's at the end of the LSE-CM/ISS
tether dipole element (roughly 2r from Earth) has potential for a
whole lot more than clean energy.

BTW, I totally agree with wind-farms, even if it's just one super-
tower per 100 square miles is roughly a whole lot better than what
we've got. A multitasking wind, solar and stirling energy tower
should be good for at least 40 kw/m2 of its tower footprint, with a 50
kw/m2 potential.
.. - Brad Guth
  #27  
Old May 9th 08, 04:36 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,alt.talk.weather,sci.military.naval,alt.global-warming
Richard Casady
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Posts: 84
Default ... OIL has Doubled in One Year! $120 bbl While NASA Dreams of Moon Rocks!

On Fri, 09 May 2008 01:25:43 +0100, Andrew Swallow
wrote:

If you want to help the world build wind farms,


Iowa is a leader at that. 5% of the juice in Iowa is from wind. Unlike
solar, it works at night.
,
Terrestrial solar electric panels are the thing for a boat. Keep the
batteries charged and run a ventilation blower and a bilge pump.

Casady
  #28  
Old May 9th 08, 05:22 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,alt.talk.weather,sci.military.naval,alt.global-warming
BradGuth
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Posts: 21,544
Default ... OIL has Doubled in One Year! $120 bbl While NASA Dreams ofMoon Rocks!


jonathan wrote:
"BradGuth" wrote in message
...
Forgot to mention, it's an oil and blood sucking sprint to the
finish. WWIII will just be another reminder that our "no child left
behind" as our national policy of being dumbfounded past the point of
no return, has been working like a charm.
. - Brad Guth



And just yesterday I heard somewhere that with the summer demand
picking up steam, we can expect gas prices to go up five to ten cents
...per week...for a while.


Our ENRON managed oil refineries will be sure to make that one come
true, if not work at doubling that weekly increase amount.


It's rather easy to see when a system is nearing it's breaking or tipping
point. When a normally minor change in a basic variable results in
unusually large effects, cascading to other related systems...that's
when the point is approaching.

For instance, the latest increases in oil prices set off rapid
inflation in food prices and shortages around the world.
We can expect each new round of increases to have
ever larger effects throughout our economy.
And most importantly, the effects are not only out of proportion
(non-linear) to the cause, but unpredictable to boot.

I think it's pretty easy to argue we're getting to a critical point
and fast.

Wait until the new administration takes office. We'll all be
shocked at just how much this administration has covered
up one problem after another. For the sake of our security.


Even if the return of Christ took charge, I think we're sort of
screwed, especially after our DARPA and company of brown-nosed minions
gets him put back on that stick again.
.. - Brad Guth
  #29  
Old May 9th 08, 07:41 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,alt.talk.weather,sci.military.naval,alt.global-warming
Totorkon
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Posts: 183
Default ... OIL has Doubled in One Year! $120 bbl While NASA Dreams ofMoon Rocks!

On May 7, 5:25*am, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
On Tue, 6 May 2008 22:52:11 -0700 (PDT), in a place far, far away,
Totorkon made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:

A 5Gw SPS would have a mass close to 100X the ISS. *If its cost were
scaled by the same measure, the price tag would exceed twelve trillion
dollars.


It would be absurd to assume that it would scale that way.


But it will serve as a handy baseline for any critic of such a
project. At 12 cents/Kwh it would have to cost no more than 1% of
that figure, $120B, just to pay for itself, without a profit. A
structure of more than nine square miles, in GEO, for less than the
cost of the ISS.

I don't think this is absurd, but it does have the smell of political
suicide.
  #30  
Old May 9th 08, 12:14 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,alt.talk.weather,sci.military.naval,alt.global-warming
Rand Simberg[_1_]
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Posts: 8,311
Default ... OIL has Doubled in One Year! $120 bbl While NASA Dreams of Moon Rocks!

On Thu, 8 May 2008 23:41:47 -0700 (PDT), in a place far, far away,
Totorkon made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:

On May 7, 5:25*am, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
On Tue, 6 May 2008 22:52:11 -0700 (PDT), in a place far, far away,
Totorkon made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:

A 5Gw SPS would have a mass close to 100X the ISS. *If its cost were
scaled by the same measure, the price tag would exceed twelve trillion
dollars.


It would be absurd to assume that it would scale that way.


But it will serve as a handy baseline for any critic of such a
project. At 12 cents/Kwh it would have to cost no more than 1% of
that figure, $120B, just to pay for itself, without a profit. A
structure of more than nine square miles, in GEO, for less than the
cost of the ISS.


There's no reason that the unit cost couldn't be much less than that.
As I said, it's an absurd way to cost it. There is almost zero
relationship between the costs of ISS and any future large-scale
structural activity.
 




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