Dyna Soar maximum seating capacity...

... six. Though five was more likely. Photos and drawings posted to
my blog:
http://up-ship.com/blog/

Whether using an entire Titan III to launch 5 people to a space
station would have been cost effective is arguable, but it was clearly
doable.

With reusable SRMs as United Tech proposed, much of the operational
capability - and headache - of the Space Shuttle could have been put
into service by the end of the 1960's. Either it would have proven to
be nightmarish, and any Shuttle-type vehicle would have been built
only different lines, or they would have worked the bugs out 15 years
earlier and many billions of dollars cheaper.

wrote:

... six. Though five was more likely. Photos and drawings posted to
my blog:
http://up-ship.com/blog/

Whether using an entire Titan III to launch 5 people to a space
station would have been cost effective is arguable, but it was clearly
doable.

With reusable SRMs as United Tech proposed, much of the operational
capability - and headache - of the Space Shuttle could have been put
into service by the end of the 1960's. Either it would have proven to
be nightmarish, and any Shuttle-type vehicle would have been built
only different lines, or they would have worked the bugs out 15 years
earlier and many billions of dollars cheaper.

Were they imaginary seats? Or real seats? Just curious.

wrote:
... six. Though five was more likely. Photos and drawings posted to
my blog:
http://up-ship.com/blog/

Whether using an entire Titan III to launch 5 people to a space
station would have been cost effective is arguable, but it was clearly
doable.


A small Titan II launched automated cargo vehicle would have been very
economical, with the Titan III Big Gemini/Dyna-Soar crew carriers only
going up around twice a year.
A Atlas-Centaur would be another economical alternative to the Titan II
for unmanned cargo delivery.
You are still going to need something like a Saturn V to get the station
itself into orbit.
The concept of a "wetlab" approach using the S-II stage as the basis for
the station, with the initial outfitting gear carried atop it instead of
a Skylab gives the right station size for a 5-6 man crew delivery system
like Dyna-Soar, or the larger number of passengers carried by the Big
Gemini.
When you start figuring out the food...and particularly
water...requirements that a crew of over 5-6 need, the concept of "as
few crew as possible" becomes very attractive from the support launches
required point of view.

Pat

On Jul 6, 10:12 pm, Pat Flannery wrote:

You are still going to need something like a Saturn V to get the station
itself into orbit.

No, a Saturn I will do the job. A MOL+S-IV wetlab was the baselined
station concept.

wrote:
You are still going to need something like a Saturn V to get the station
itself into orbit.


No, a Saturn I will do the job. A MOL+S-IV wetlab was the baselined
station concept.


Yeah, but that was for a three-man station; this thing is going to be
for 5-6 crew so it will probably be larger.
(There's a design for a six-crew super-Skylab based on the Saturn V
launched S-IVB stage in the book "Frontiers Of Space" with at least
three docking ports for Apollo CSMs on it, but it looks overweight for
something a Saturn V could launch using only two stages)
They did do designs for wetlabs based on the S-II stage IIRC, and
something that size has a lot of room for future upgrading.
One advantage would be that all the gear for basic outfitting of it
could ride atop the S-II stage in lieu of a Skylab, and be in position
when the first outfitting crew went up.

Pat

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...
Yeah, but that was for a three-man station; this thing is going to be for
5-6 crew so it will probably be larger.
(There's a design for a six-crew super-Skylab based on the Saturn V
launched S-IVB stage in the book "Frontiers Of Space" with at least three
docking ports for Apollo CSMs on it, but it looks overweight for something
a Saturn V could launch using only two stages)

Depends on the inclination of the orbit and the altitude. Remember that
Skylab went to a pretty high inclination. I'll bet a two stage Saturn V
could launch a bit bigger Skylab if you stuck to KSC's optimal inclination.

They did do designs for wetlabs based on the S-II stage IIRC, and
something that size has a lot of room for future upgrading.
One advantage would be that all the gear for basic outfitting of it could
ride atop the S-II stage in lieu of a Skylab, and be in position when the
first outfitting crew went up.

I'm sure some of these were planning on having at least minor upgrades to
the Saturn V like J-2S engines on the second stage and F-1A engines on the
first. And of course we all know there is seemingly no end to the possible
upgrades to the Saturn V. ;-)

Jeff
--
A clever person solves a problem.
A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein

On Jul 9, 6:28 am, "Jeff Findley" wrote:
"Pat Flannery" wrote in message

They did do designs for wetlabs based on the S-II stage IIRC, and
something that size has a lot of room for future upgrading.
One advantage would be that all the gear for basic outfitting of it could
ride atop the S-II stage in lieu of a Skylab, and be in position when the
first outfitting crew went up.

I'm sure some of these were planning on having at least minor upgrades to
the Saturn V like J-2S engines on the second stage and F-1A engines on the
first.

The S-ID stage was meant to be capable of 1.5STO. Five F-1A engines
roaring away for a while, then the outer four are dropped much like
the Atlas dropped two booster engines, then the remaining central F-1A
continues to push the stage to orbit. Paylaod capacity was said to be
50,000 pounds. Imagien if that 50Klbs was the equipent and hardware
needed for a wetlab version of the S-ID stage. Yow.

wrote in message
...
The S-ID stage was meant to be capable of 1.5STO. Five F-1A engines
roaring away for a while, then the outer four are dropped much like
the Atlas dropped two booster engines, then the remaining central F-1A
continues to push the stage to orbit. Paylaod capacity was said to be
50,000 pounds. Imagien if that 50Klbs was the equipent and hardware
needed for a wetlab version of the S-ID stage. Yow.

You mean this, right?
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/saturnvb.htm

Compared to an S-IVB based workshop (e.g. Skylab), that would be freaking
huge. I'd think that cleaning out the kerosene tank would be a bit messy,
but even if you didn't bother doing anything with the kerosene tank, that
LOX tank is freaking huge by itself!

50k of lbs of payload may not be enough to fully outfit such a huge station,
so I'd imagine you'd want a few flights of the same launch vehicle with an
upper stage on top to finish outfitting the station. Say something in the
180k lb range, like this?
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/saturnvc.htm

Who needs large SRB's when you've got the F-1A?

Jeff
--
A clever person solves a problem.
A wise person avoids it. -- Einstein

On Jul 10, 8:30 am, "Jeff Findley"
wrote:
wrote in message

...

The S-ID stage was meant to be capable of 1.5STO. Five F-1A engines
roaring away for a while, then the outer four are dropped much like
the Atlas dropped two booster engines, then the remaining central F-1A
continues to push the stage to orbit. Paylaod capacity was said to be
50,000 pounds. Imagien if that 50Klbs was the equipent and hardware
needed for a wetlab version of the S-ID stage. Yow.

You mean this, right?
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/saturnvb.htm

Yes.


Compared to an S-IVB based workshop (e.g. Skylab), that would be freaking
huge. I'd think that cleaning out the kerosene tank would be a bit messy,

Maybe. I suspect a lot could be done by simply opening a few hatches
to the vacuum of space and letting the tank air out and bake for a few
weeks.

Jeff Findley wrote:
Compared to an S-IVB based workshop (e.g. Skylab), that would be freaking
huge. I'd think that cleaning out the kerosene tank would be a bit messy,
but even if you didn't bother doing anything with the kerosene tank, that
LOX tank is freaking huge by itself!


The nice part about the LOX/LH2 propellants of the S-II and S-4B stages
is that the propellants would boil off cleanly after a few orbits if the
tanks were vented.

50k of lbs of payload may not be enough to fully outfit such a huge station,
so I'd imagine you'd want a few flights of the same launch vehicle with an
upper stage on top to finish outfitting the station. Say something in the
180k lb range, like this?
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/saturnvc.htm

Who needs large SRB's when you've got the F-1A?


Then you end up with this: http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/satuttle.htm

Pat