The Phases

On Monday, December 1, 2014 11:14:44 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:
On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 5:17:12 AM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Monday, December 1, 2014 8:49:48 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:
On Monday, December 1, 2014 9:39:11 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
On Monday, December 1, 2014 5:16:32 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
On Monday, December 1, 2014 1:51:55 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
Here's an early Christmas present for you.

Retrogrades of Venus take up its full motion from quadrature to
quadrature when traveling in front of the Sun while it moves in the
opposite direction against the stars when traveling behind the Sun.

The YouTube simulation shows Mercury traveling out from behind the Sun
from May 20th to its widest point on June 10th and then as it swings in
front of the Sun it moves with ElNath Castor and Pollux -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

It is only a matter of using the phases of the inner planets to focus
attention on the closed loop of an orbital circuit whereas outer
planetary retrogrades arise from a different sourse based on relative motions -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120809.html

The real challenge was working out how to account for the Earth's orbital
motion when looking at the retrogrades of Venus and Mercury and that
challenge will be there for anyone delights in the grandstand view we
have of the orbital motion of Venus.

I don't have time for dealing with the rubbish of Newton and his
followers, this topic is reformatting the works of the original
heliocentric astronomers to take into account the needed partitioning of
retrograde resolutions and especially use phase changes and variations in
size to focus attention on the inner planets.

Show me retrogrades of Venus accompanied by phase changes and then we can talk.

Didn't you look at the circle in the bottom half of the image with the size
and phase change of venus matched to the position of the planet in the sky?


http://earthsky.org/space/animation-...-2014-and-2015

Where are you going to account for the orbital motion of the Earth ?. I
have seen lots of these simulations and one as dumb as the next however
the Sky and Telescope graphic does have the motion of the stars behind
the Sun in sequence due to the orbital motion of the Earth thereby
setting up the central Sun as a reference for the grandstand view of the inner planets.

You need to be an astronomer Collins to appreciate this amazing spectacle
where inner planets show the complete range of phases when view from an
outer planet. All you have done is shown how wretched the NASA
organization has become because you ain't going to inject phases into the
graphic which asserts what the Earth would look like from Mars -

http://mars.nasa.gov/allaboutmars/nightsky/retrograde/

Unlike the outer planets where planetary motion around the Sun in
inferred indirectly via relative motions, we see the gorgeous motion of
the inner planets as they make a circuit of the Sun -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7U5VbasKr4

You can't enjoy that time lapse like a man but some day students will
appreciate the linkage between planetary phases and the orbital position
of an inner planet to us and to the central Sun.

You have shown here that you are an ungrateful petulant wretch with the
manners of a selfish spoiled 6 year old. "You've shown me what I asked for
- retrogrades of Venus accompanied by a phase change - but now I want more
and i want it NOW."


Don't make me laugh, the Earth's orbital input into observations is represented by the motion of the stars in sequence behind the Sun as the Earth travels through space so don't waste my precious time with worthless junk which omits the motion of Venus and Mercury in the direction of the background stars (retrogrades) and more importantly - accounts for the orbital motion of the Earth.

Retrogrades haven't been touched since Copernicus first resolved the apparent motion of the outer planets by using relative motions as the outer planets temporarily fall behind in view as the Earth overtakes them but an entirely separate resolution is needed for the inner planets and let you and your colleagues scream all you will, we see the motion of the inner planets around the Sun as though watching cars circuit a track.


https://briankoberlein.com/wp-conten...nus-phase1.jpg







No apology for not looking properly at the video (or maybe not looking at
it at all).
Larry Koehn at shadowandsubstance,com has produced a brilliant prediction
of the motions of Venus next year and incorporated the phases and apparent
size of the planet as well. You insult his skill with your disparaging
comments.

Skill indeed !, the real skill is in the many images showing a graceful arc with phases and size increase using actual observations of Venus -

http://tool-box.info/blog/uploads/Ve...6-20140104.png

These are the images and people who created them that are worth pursuing so readers can't have it both ways, they either accept the steady size increase of Venus as it approaches our orbit at its closest approach and the closed loop with a complete set of phase changes focusing observers to the fact that the planet orbits the Sun. That your kind will do everything to dispute this observation is best left unsaid for the misery and lack of consideration involved.



I've been wondering how to simultaneously show retrograde motion, phase and
apparent size changes at the same time without distortion and he has
succeeded brilliantly.
Yet you still prefer the pathetic S&T prediction which has clunky 1980s
graphics and bears only a slight resemblance to the true appearance of the
sky.

Retrograde motion of the inner planets occur from quadrature to quadrature when the planet moves in front of the Sun and the Sky and Telescope graphic is the only one presently that takes into account the orbital motion of the Earth which sets up the central Sun as a reference whereby we get that spectacular grandstand view of the inner planets.

At least Collins you are drawn into looking at retrogrades with phase changes which obliterates any notion that retrogrades are resolved by a hypothetical observer on the Sun as your hero Newton imagined. It is your cult that is preventing people with intelligence and spirit from appreciating a wonderful way to affirm that the inner planets orbit the Sun while using the Earth's orbital motion to set the stage for that brilliant perspective.

Gerald, you haven't a clue, do you? You are completely blind as to reality. You have been given a link that shows exactly how Venus moves wrt the fixed stars, and all you can do is insist that its motion wrt the Sun is the only acceptable perspective.

Coming from the guy who has difficulty with the passage of Venus from one side of the Sun to the other, hence mirror image phases, that usual noise from you means absolutely nothing

I don't have any difficulty whatsoever understanding how the phases (and the growth and/or shrinking of Venus' diameter) of Venus change on a regular basis, and I also understand that wrt the fixed stars its motion is not so simple, as shown by Mike's insightful link. I have enjoyed the western and eastern elongations of Venus (and Mercury, too, for that matter) a lot longer than you have, since you only discovered this yourself recently.

http://artsandstars.ens-lyon.fr/venu...es.png?lang=en

Such a wonderful spectacle without the effort made by many people -

Whatever that is supposed to mean...

So now you know how to use phases to affirm that Venus orbits the Sun and our position on an outer planet gives us a satisfying perspective.

You all live out that miserable swindle where you won't even recognize the observations and conclusions which refer retrogrades to the motion and orbital position of the Earth as the relative motion between Earth and the outer planets infer our common orbits around the Sun while we see the motion of the inner planets around the Sun directly.

This is a long way from Newton and his hypothetical observer on the Sun attempt to account for observed planetary motions but I wouldn't even give you credit for realizing that. You don't hate astronomy as much as are mesmerized by a fiction created for you by generation after generation of people who have no feeling for the celestial arena nor Earth's place in it.

That hypothetical observer on the Sun would see no retrograde motion among any of the planets because he is on a surface that does not move wrt any of the planets, hence all of them would appear to move through the fixed stars in a single direction 100% of the time. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend? Newton was exactly correct, NO PLANETARY RETROGRADE MOTION COULD BE OBSERVED FROM ANY LOCATION ON THE SUN!

On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 3:13:38 AM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:


http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/S...age%20flat.jpg

I never get tired of that image and neither should anyone else ,at least until they truly appreciate the closed loop of Venus and why its motion with and against the background stars is processed across the quadratures.

Well, impressive as it is, that is not an image in the normal sense of the word, it is a montage of many images, a collage, and only approximates reality, and only wrt the Sun. Wrt to the fixed stars, not so much. Not a deal-breaker, but you need to keep things in perspective, a tool that is not in your toolbox.

What does it take to show any observe at your star parties what goes on as Venus and Mercury are never far from the Sun at evening or at dawn yet you have yet to appreciate the spectacle as Venus goes from an evening spectacle to a morning spectacle as it passes in front of the Sun and moves to the other side.

I assure you, I enjoy both inferior planets in the evening and morning sky as much as anyone.

... Breath the air of an astronomer Paul for the first time and expand your view and your ideas instead of trying to diminish me and I do like that American saying which partly qualifies this -

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." Eleanor Roosevelt

I will remind you of this quote whenever you stoop to labeling fellow amateur observers with vile invectives, as you a likely to do now and again...

\Paul A

On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 9:08:04 PM UTC, palsing wrote:

That hypothetical observer on the Sun would see no retrograde motion among any of the planets because he is on a surface that does not move wrt any of the planets, hence all of them would appear to move through the fixed stars in a single direction 100% of the time. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend? Newton was exactly correct, NO PLANETARY RETROGRADE MOTION COULD BE OBSERVED FROM ANY LOCATION ON THE SUN!

We see the planets move directly around the Sun or haven't you heard ? perhaps you can't understand that the faster relative motion of the Earth with respect to the slower moving outer planets dictate a common orbit in one direction around the Sun ? -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

Those planets are moving forwards all the time so no need to invoke a stupid notion that you need to be on the Sun to conclude what can be seen from a moving Earth.

We see Venus and Mercury move around the Sun directly yet a few posts ago you had nobody else to correct you on the matter that when Venus passes in front of the Sun by overtaking us it goes from an evening planet to a morning planet.

I might like you Alsing but I don't respect any of you insofar as you all seem intent in creating damage and chaos at the most basic and the most celebrated insights.

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 12:37:16 AM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 1:39:31 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg


People must be truly desperate despite the fact that contemporary imaging makes proof of orbital motion such a spectacular sight to behold.

Gerald, if you really think this is an image, you are dumber than a box of hammers. Just where was this photographer standing in order to get such a shot of Venus BELOW the Sun in his field of view?

You wrote that a few days ago and now that you have your answer you still can't manage to work out that when you look out at the central Sun at noon , Venus is right there in almost the same position as it will be a few hours later so there is no above/below, there is simply Venus moving along the orbital plane as it swings out from behind the stationary Sun and back in front of that same star.

You can't break out of your celestial sphere above/below or the 'night sky' to think of the celestial arena as a stage for the motions as they appear to us and as they exist within the structure of the solar system.

On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 1:26:46 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

We see the planets move directly around the Sun or haven't you heard ? perhaps you can't understand that the faster relative motion of the Earth with respect to the slower moving outer planets dictate a common orbit in one direction around the Sun ? -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

Those planets are moving forwards all the time so no need to invoke a stupid notion that you need to be on the Sun to conclude what can be seen from a moving Earth.

You mean, in your very own link, you didn't notice the planets apparently moving BACKWARDS wrt to fixed stars part of the time? Isn't that backwards motion the very definition of retrograde motion? From the Sun that apparent backwards motion against the stars would not happen!

... I don't respect any of you insofar as you all seem intent in creating damage and chaos at the most basic and the most celebrated insights.

Nothing could be further from the truth... and I don't see much evidence that you have any insight regarding these matters.

Are you enjoying your time in SoCal? Gonna rain a lot over the next 2 days, finally...

\Paul A

On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 9:37:41 PM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 1:26:46 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

We see the planets move directly around the Sun or haven't you heard ? perhaps you can't understand that the faster relative motion of the Earth with respect to the slower moving outer planets dictate a common orbit in one direction around the Sun ? -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

Those planets are moving forwards all the time so no need to invoke a stupid notion that you need to be on the Sun to conclude what can be seen from a moving Earth.

You mean, in your very own link, you didn't notice the planets apparently moving BACKWARDS wrt to fixed stars part of the time? Isn't that backwards motion the very definition of retrograde motion? From the Sun that apparent backwards motion against the stars would not happen!


Retrograde motion is the apparent motion of the planets against the background stars however a sane person knows that it is really the slower moving planets temporarily falling behind in view as the faster Earth moves through space hence direct motion is not only inferred, it is beyond question.

Do you see all the planets moving forward or not as the Earth overtakes them ? -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

I don't need a stupid observer on the Sun to tell me what Kepler and Galileo themselves understood that the motion of the Earth supplies the resolutions -

"In the Ptolemaic hypotheses there are the diseases, and the Copernican their cure. . And what are we to say of the apparent movement of a planet, so uneven that it not only goes fast at one time and slow at another, but sometimes stops entirely and even goes backward a long way after doing so? To save these appearances, Ptolemy introduces vast epicycles, adapting them one by one to each planet, with certain rules about incongruous motions -- all of which can be done away with by one very simple motion of the Earth." Galileo

Your cult can't have it both ways, you either pick up all the arguments which determine that a moving Earth between Venus and Mars accounts for retrogrades,phases, luminosity variations, size increases as an entire package or you all go on a solo run with announcing retrogrades are resolved by a hypothetical observer on the Sun.

Of course a cult mind can't reason from founding principles as ,by its very nature, indoctrination is an unreasoning mind. We see the motions of the planets move directly around the Sun as long as we are aware of the perspectives and certainly something as easy as phase changes and size increases of Venus demonstrates we have a grandstand view of a planet moving directly around the Sun.











... I don't respect any of you insofar as you all seem intent in creating damage and chaos at the most basic and the most celebrated insights.

Nothing could be further from the truth... and I don't see much evidence that you have any insight regarding these matters.

Are you enjoying your time in SoCal? Gonna rain a lot over the next 2 days, finally...

\Paul A

On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 9:37:41 PM UTC, palsing wrote:

Are you enjoying your time in SoCal? Gonna rain a lot over the next 2 days, finally...

\Paul A

I am visiting my children next week for a month and one of them serves in the US army and I am quite proud of that. She was recently indignant about a freeloader who used an army uniform for self-serving purposes yet this guy was called out by someone who could spot a fraud -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOj07ClhEi8

You are not a fraud but you throw in your lot with these theorists who will not be pinned down when the very observations that constitute methods,principles and insights of astronomy are placed in front of them while many cowards have just run away.

You are no coward and have no reason to be ashamed no more than Collins does even though he is a different kettle of fish but all these other peacocks who will not venture into imaging and graphics and subsist on voodoo and bluff to freeload on the wider population, now they have known neither effort or sacrifice.

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 at 12:37:16 AM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 1:39:31 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

People must be truly desperate despite the fact that contemporary imaging makes proof of orbital motion such a spectacular sight to behold.

Gerald, if you really think this is an image, you are dumber than a box of hammers. Just where was this photographer standing in order to get such a shot of Venus BELOW the Sun in his field of view?

The great orbital motion,inherent in all planets, that puts Venus from the left side of the Sun at twilight to a dawn planet and the right side of the Sun as it overtakes us doesn't allow for the celestial sphere designations of above/below and even though in the webpage header of that sequence of images is the period from July 2012 to January 2012 you have shown no understanding nor could you.

The phases as presented by astrophotographers is not new, what is knew is accounting for perspective which includes the Earth's motion and its orbital input which sets the Sun up as a central reference for the motion of Venus from left to right.

All the money in the world cannot buy appreciation of these things hence a type of riches belonging to those who make the effort to go beyond mere identification and who shatter the celestial sphere shell which organizes observations only within the scope of the local horizon and above/below.

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 at 12:37:16 AM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 1:39:31 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

People must be truly desperate despite the fact that contemporary imaging makes proof of orbital motion such a spectacular sight to behold.

Gerald, if you really think this is an image, you are dumber than a box of hammers. Just where was this photographer standing in order to get such a shot of Venus BELOW the Sun in his field of view?

The middle Eastern thugs only get to blow themselves up one time whereas you come back again and again in the hope of disrupting something which normal people could enjoy if it made it into wider circulation.

The astrophotographer was standing on an Earth that is moving through space like a huge natural spacecraft and the clues to its motion can be found in many ways by using the other planets. When Venus overtakes the Earth along roughly the same orbital plane it transitions from a twilight planet to a dawn planet hence there is no celestial sphere 'BELOW' the Sun seeing that you accentuated the homocentric perspective.

I am well aware of the achievement in historical and technical context insofar as with just a slight shift in perspective where the annual motion of the stars behind the central Sun due to the orbital motion of the Earth displaces the less productive motion of the Sun through the Zodiac,the partitioning of perspectives between the inner and outer planets can create the stable environment astronomy needs right now.

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 at 12:37:16 AM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 1:39:31 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

People must be truly desperate despite the fact that contemporary imaging makes proof of orbital motion such a spectacular sight to behold.

Gerald, if you really think this is an image, you are dumber than a box of hammers. Just where was this photographer standing in order to get such a shot of Venus BELOW the Sun in his field of view?

I don't know how many times I am expected to deal with these old nuisances who hate the insights that others have already picked up on such as the motion of the inner planets from left to right and then right to left as they make a circuit of the Sun while the outer planets and the background stars always move from left to right only as the faster Earth puts them eventually behind the glare of the central Sun.

I am interested in people who know what has been done, not those who are bounded within their local horizon and a celestial sphere universe.