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How are the Japanese doing that?
On Jun 16, 6:24*am, Jeff Findley wrote:
Look at SpaceX. *$400 million to develop and fly the first Falcon 9. * NASA spent that on the Ares I launch tower alone (a big steel structure). *NASA has pi$$ed away billions on Ares I with what to show for it? *All we've seen fly so far is one shuttle SRB topped with a dummy fifth SRB segment, a dummy second stage, and a dummy payload. * Sounds like a dumb waste of money to me. I'm not the biggest fan of Ares and Constellation as a whole, but you do go a bit over the top here. Comparing Ares I and Falcon 9 is a bit fallacious since they are in two different lift catagories all together; F-9 is 23,000 lb while Ares I is 56,000 lb. Ares Ares I-X was more than just what you describe, it also had a rather successful and as it turned out largely unneeded roll control system. It also proved out that the "stick" configuration could fly (remember all the naysayers who claimed and hoped that Ares I-X would crash into the launch tower?) and that the seperation system worked. Also recall that in addition to the Ares I tower, there was quite a bit of work done to rebuild LC-39B and one of the MLPs for that flight. Oh yes, and speaking of flying, the one thing the Ares I-X flight helped to put to rest was the dreaded flight oscillation scare. So through incremental testing, a large number of concerns were put to rest. And it's a cheap shot, but at least Ares I-X's first stage recovery system has worked better than Space X's Falcon 1 and 9's. In addtion, the Constellation program as a whole has developed quite a bit, such as the highly successful launch escape systems that were recently tested. Given that Constellation was working towards developing a deep-space exploration series of vehicles, while Space X was developing an unmanned one that might be developed for a billion more dollars for LEO ferry and resupply work, you are comparing apples and oranges. -Mike |
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How are the Japanese doing that?
Mike DiCenso wrote:
rebuild LC-39B and one of the MLPs for that flight. Oh yes, and speaking of flying, the one thing the Ares I-X flight helped to put to rest was the dreaded flight oscillation scare. The I-X flight didn't use the lengthened SRB, the last segment was a dummy. -- Mvh./Regards, Niels Jørgen Kruse, Vanløse, Denmark |
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How are the Japanese doing that?
On Jun 24, 3:24*am, (Niels Jørgen Kruse)
wrote: Mike DiCenso wrote: rebuild LC-39B and one of the MLPs for that flight. Oh yes, and speaking of flying, the one thing the Ares I-X flight helped to put to rest was the dreaded flight oscillation scare. The I-X flight didn't use the lengthened SRB, the last segment was a dummy. Kind of irrelevant since the oscillations were supposed to be the result of the SRB segments no longer being attached to the sides of the ET, and that any kind of payload riding on top of a four or five segment stack would experiance them. The fact that the oscillations were far below what was expect, even for a four-segment SRB stack speaks to the overly conservative engineering that postulated their existance in the first place as it should be. But some people with an all too obvious agenda picked up on it and ran it as though it were a real show-stopper, when it clearly wasn't. -Mike |
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How are the Japanese doing that?
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How are the Japanese doing that?
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 11:09:53 -0400, Jeff Findley
wrote: Falcon 9 Heavy would have a LEO payload capacity of 71,000 lbs, which is far in excess of Ares I. Does that include payload penalties to prevent upper stages coming down on populated areas? Ares I's did. I'd bet that developing Falcon 9 Heavy would still cost far less than Ares I development. Probably. But to whom do you charge the cost of developing the Launch Escape System and the J-2X upper stage, needed for manned flight and beyond earth orbit missions? Ares I pays for them. Falcon 9 does not, and neither will be cheap. You also have to ask what kind of manned launch pad SpaceX plans for Falcon 9, and how much will it cost. I doubt it will be Pad 40, as then they'd have to stop launching Falcon 9s (and stop making most of their money) for a significant period of time while the upgrades are being done. (Look how long SLC-6 was down while they upgraded it from Delta IV-Medium to Delta IV-Heavy.) Data point of one for all of those things "proven". . Of course. Remember also the doom and gloom about Ares I being unworkable, "it will shake itself to pieces", "it won't be controllable in the slightest of breezes!", "it will crash into the tower!" were all accusations of the Anti-Ares (or "Antares") brigade based on a data point of zero. A little latitude for Ares I supporters from the Ares I-X success is called for, I think. One test of hardware which is non-representative of any actual Ares I flight hardware is not an incremental test program. It's a stunt. That's a bit harsh. The data gathered from a real-world test flight, albeit significantly different than the ultimate flight version, is still hugely useful in refining computer models of how the real McCoy will work. Ares I-X gave the engineering teams a huge vote of confidence. At least now they know that the fears Ares I will vertically oscillate itself into oblivion were seriously overstated. It might still happen, but the odds are much lower now. That's an order of magnitude more money compared to Falcon 9 development costs for a bit more than 2x the payload. That's not terribly impressive, in fact, it's quite pitiful. It depends on what's included in the cost and if you still plan a heavy lift booster for BEO. If you still need J-2X, then someone needs to pay for it, and you have to figure in that cost when choosing Falcon 9. I stand by my original statements and would like to add that I believe that NASA should not develop and operate any new launch vehicle *at all*. I still think we should have gone to an updated Shuttle-C design circa 2007. I said that at the time Ares V started going off the rails, but at that time DIRECT was all the rage. Brian |
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