If someone had a heavy lift launcher ready to go, would they get anycustomers?

I guess it's really a dumb question, considering the history of
energia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energia

But the thought has croseed my mind: if a deep-pockets entity built a
lifter that could put up 200,000 lbs, or greater, might not someone
decide, 'hey, we could build a space station to lauch on that thing,'
or 'hey, we could use that to send up and assemble moonships or
Marsships [or such]?"

With the heavy lifter already developed and available at some
particular price per lauch, then someone ELSE could concentate on
applications: space stations for tourists, interplanetary craft, etc.

On Mar 9, 3:47*pm, giveitawhirl2008
wrote:
I guess it's really a dumb question, considering the history of
energia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energia

But the thought has croseed my mind: if a deep-pockets entity built a
lifter that could put up 200,000 lbs, or greater, might not someone
decide, 'hey, we could build a space station to lauch on that thing,'
or 'hey, we could use that to send up and assemble moonships or
Marsships [or such]?"

With the heavy lifter already developed and available at some
particular price per lauch, then someone ELSE could concentate on
applications: space stations for tourists, interplanetary craft, etc.

Oh, and....http://1mmph.yolasite.com/

giveitawhirl2008 wrote in news:cdd5d1d1-6395-
:

I guess it's really a dumb question, considering the history of
energia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energia

But the thought has croseed my mind: if a deep-pockets entity built a
lifter that could put up 200,000 lbs, or greater, might not someone
decide, 'hey, we could build a space station to lauch on that thing,'
or 'hey, we could use that to send up and assemble moonships or
Marsships [or such]?"

With the heavy lifter already developed and available at some
particular price per lauch, then someone ELSE could concentate on
applications: space stations for tourists, interplanetary craft, etc.

There would be extremely few, if any, payloads. The proposed missions
would cost *much* more than the launch cost; if it takes deep pockets
just to develop and build the rocket, imagine what it'll take for a
manned Mars mission.

Maybe, just maybe, solar power; that stands a chance of actually
generating money to pay for the investment.

This is a case of, if it was built they might come if you
gave them a good reason for it.

--Damon

On Mar 9, 4:01*pm, Damon Hill wrote:
giveitawhirl2008 wrote in news:cdd5d1d1-6395-
:

I guess it's really a dumb question, considering the history of
energia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energia

But the thought has croseed my mind: if a deep-pockets entity built a
lifter that could put up 200,000 lbs, or greater, might not someone
decide, 'hey, we could build a space station to lauch on that thing,'
or 'hey, we could use that to send up and assemble moonships or
Marsships [or such]?"

With the heavy lifter already developed and available at some
particular price per lauch, then someone ELSE could concentate on
applications: space stations for tourists, interplanetary craft, etc.

There would be extremely few, if any, payloads. *The proposed missions
would cost *much* more than the launch cost; if it takes deep pockets
just to develop and build the rocket, imagine what it'll take for a
manned Mars mission.

Maybe, just maybe, solar power; that stands a chance of actually
generating money to pay for the investment.

This is a case of, if it was built they might come if you
gave them a good reason for it.

--Damon

Well, it's true: money is a big deal no matter what. Sally Ride said
that if the Orion program system where already built and ready to go,
the first thing NASA would have to do is shut it down because even
NASA's proposed budget at the time would not afford NASA to operate
it.

Yet, it seems the heavy lift capability - or lack thereof - is always
one big factor in planning big space enterprises. If all you needed
was cash and you could launch *now*, it seems that would be a major
hurdle out of the way.

giveitawhirl2008 wrote:
I guess it's really a dumb question, considering the history of
energia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energia

But the thought has croseed my mind: if a deep-pockets entity built a
lifter that could put up 200,000 lbs, or greater, might not someone
decide, 'hey, we could build a space station to lauch on that thing,'
or 'hey, we could use that to send up and assemble moonships or
Marsships [or such]?"

With the heavy lifter already developed and available at some
particular price per lauch, then someone ELSE could concentate on
applications: space stations for tourists, interplanetary craft, etc.

A lot depends on cost.

Is it going to cost me $10 to launch or $10B.

That really drives my plans. At $10 I can build a big dumb capsule and not
worry about optimizing anything. At $10B I'm going to to want to optimize
my payload so much as to make IT cost-ineffective.


--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

On 3/9/2010 1:01 PM, Damon Hill wrote:
There would be extremely few, if any, payloads. The proposed missions
would cost *much* more than the launch cost; if it takes deep pockets
just to develop and build the rocket, imagine what it'll take for a
manned Mars mission.

Maybe, just maybe, solar power; that stands a chance of actually
generating money to pay for the investment.

Energia was named Energia ("Energy") because it was sold to the Soviet
people as a means of building solar power stations in Earth orbit.

Pat

giveitawhirl2008 wrote in news:ecc59952-4091-
:


Yet, it seems the heavy lift capability - or lack thereof - is always
one big factor in planning big space enterprises. If all you needed
was cash and you could launch *now*, it seems that would be a major
hurdle out of the way.

Money is always the factor in whether a mission flies; no mission, no
launch vehicle needed. That's what happened to the Apollo program and
the Saturn launch vehicle family.

No one is going to continue funding support of a rocket that has no
mission. The launch capability we have now and in the near future
is a reflection of the actual need, real or politically perceived.

--Damon

On Mar 10, 1:22�am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
giveitawhirl2008 wrote:

:I guess it's really a dumb question, considering the history of
:energia:
:
:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energia
:
:But the thought has croseed my mind: if a deep-pockets entity built a
:lifter that could put up 200,000 lbs, or greater, might not someone
:decide, 'hey, we could build a space station to lauch on that thing,'
r 'hey, we could use that to send up and assemble moonships or
:Marsships [or such]?"
:
:With the heavy lifter already developed and available at some
articular price per lauch, then someone ELSE could concentate on
:applications: space stations for tourists, interplanetary craft, etc.
:

It's not enough. �If you're talking manned interplanetary ships, you
need something with more boost than that. �About twice that, in fact.
See the Mars Reference Mission, for example, where you need to be able
to boost 220 ton payloads.

You can't even uprate an Energia to get enough lift for those kinds of
missions. �You either need something completely new or you're back to
trying to come up with uprated Saturn V lifters.

Your premise is based on the 'if it exists they will come' paradigm,
which I'm not sure is true. �There isn't enough demand for launches by
vehicles in this class to get launch rates up to the point where costs
drop.

--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
� � � � � � � � � � � � � �-- Charles Pinckney

low cost heavy lift vehicle could significantly decrease payload cost.

build large easy to build easy to service station as a example.

rather than spending billions making it small and lightweight, and
crammed in too small.

go large spacious and easy to service no in orbit equiping needed

If we still had the saturn 5 or by now the upgraded saturn 10 ISS
could of been built faster better cheaper

On Mar 9, 5:50*pm, Jochem Huhmann wrote:
Pat Flannery writes:
..

Energia was named Energia ("Energy") because it was sold to the Soviet
people as a means of building solar power stations in Earth orbit.



Sorry to start off a little OT here, but the Soviet dictatorship never
*had* to "sell" anything to its people. However, even dictators like
good PR if they can have it, and the Cold War Space Race was a lot
about prestige and propaganda. Most Russians are undoubtably glad that
the USSR was the first into space, even if they aren't thrilled about
things like Stalin intentionally starving to death 7 million people in
the Ukraine, and other wonders of the history of the USSR and other
enemies of America.

In any case, the idea that Energia was intended for putting solar
power stations in orbit is pretty interesting, if true. In one sense,
too bad they didn't get a SPS going. Dictatorships don't have to worry
about public opinion on how they are spending the country's resources.
But they DO face the realities of resource limitations. If the Soviets
had been interested in space instead of military - reports are they
spent up to 90% of their country's GNP on military - they could have
done one or major, major space achievements. No one existed who was
going to argue with the Kremlin's decisions!

Can you imagine if the Soviet dictatorship had not only kept Energia
or another HLV system, but had decided to use it to permanently
colonize the Moon, or for Mars? BTW, there were rumors in the U.S., in
the 1980s, that a Soviet manned Mars mission was in the works. In a
sense, too bad these rumors turned out to be false!

giveitawhirl2008 wrote in news:4739374c-8fb2-
:



Can you imagine if the Soviet dictatorship had not only kept Energia
or another HLV system, but had decided to use it to permanently
colonize the Moon, or for Mars? BTW, there were rumors in the U.S., in
the 1980s, that a Soviet manned Mars mission was in the works. In a
sense, too bad these rumors turned out to be false!


Considering that the Soviet government/political system ceased to exist
after about 1991, and the subsequent Russian government was too
financially strapped to do anything, none of these fantasies could have
existed.

Once again, it was built, and they didn't come.

--Damon