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#11
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Quantitative Prediction of a Measurable Quantity
On Aug 13, 1:57*pm, Pentcho Valev wrote:
On Aug 13, 6:42*pm, PD wrote: http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/ph...barn_pole.html "These are the props. You own a barn, 40m long, with automatic doors at either end, that can be opened and closed simultaneously by a switch. You also have a pole, 80m long, which of course won't fit in the barn....So, as the pole passes through the barn, there is an instant when it is completely within the barn. At that instant, you close both doors simultaneously, with your switch. Of course, you open them again pretty quickly, but at least momentarily you had the contracted pole shut up in your barn." Bravo Clever Draper! Bulgarians are by no means addled - rather, they adore you and your answers. Just a small elaboration: "the quantitative prediction for the length of the pole in the barn frame is not 80m but 39m" but then, when the pole is safely trapped inside the barn, it will try to restore its proper length (which is 80m).. Why would it do that? The doors NEVER touch the ends of the pole. If you have a fly that flies into a barn and you shut the doors of the barn, the fly continues to fly around inside the barn, and when you open the doors of the barn, the fly flies out. Why are you assuming the pole is brought to rest inside the barn? You perhaps misunderstand the barn and pole puzzle as it is commonly taught. The pole enters the barn. The doors are briefly shut, while the pole is *still* moving at constant velocity. The doors never touch the ends of the pole. Before the pole reaches the far door, the doors are opened back up. The pole continues to fly out, never having changed speed. You mean ALL THIS TIME you've been flummoxed by the barn and pole paradox BECAUSE YOU CAN'T READ??? But since the doors of the barn don't break, the pole will be able to restore only 1 meter so when Clever Draper goes and measures the length of the trapped pole, Clever Draper clearly sees a 40m long pole, perhaps a few centimetres longer if the doors are slightly deformed. Is this realistic, Clever Draper? A 40m long pole and that's it? Clever Draper, Cleverest Draper, why these zombie tricks again? Look at my initial question and you will see the phrase: "....provided your brothers have forgotten to reopen the doors of the barn "pretty quickly"...." Then your question is, is it a quantitative prediction that an 80m pole will be trapped *intact* in a 40m barn if you decide to keep the barn doors closed? The answer to that is: no, relativity makes no such prediction. If you close the doors and strike one end of a very rapidly moving pole with the barn door, then all sorts of other physics gets involved. But then Clever Draper goes to the place (he is curious this Clever Draper) and measures the length of what was once a 80m long pole but is now something trapped inside the 40m long barn. What is the maximal length of this something trapped inside the 40m long barn? 40m perhaps? Special relativity does not predict even this? No, of course not. Special relativity doesn't have anything to do with the length of a pole after it's been hit with a barn door. Why would you think it does? Pentcho Valev |
#12
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Quantitative Prediction of a Measurable Quantity
On Aug 13, 9:21*pm, PD wrote:
On Aug 13, 1:57*pm, Pentcho Valev wrote: On Aug 13, 6:42*pm, PD wrote: http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/ph...barn_pole.html "These are the props. You own a barn, 40m long, with automatic doors at either end, that can be opened and closed simultaneously by a switch. You also have a pole, 80m long, which of course won't fit in the barn....So, as the pole passes through the barn, there is an instant when it is completely within the barn. At that instant, you close both doors simultaneously, with your switch. Of course, you open them again pretty quickly, but at least momentarily you had the contracted pole shut up in your barn." Bravo Clever Draper! Bulgarians are by no means addled - rather, they adore you and your answers. Just a small elaboration: "the quantitative prediction for the length of the pole in the barn frame is not 80m but 39m" but then, when the pole is safely trapped inside the barn, it will try to restore its proper length (which is 80m). Why would it do that? The doors NEVER touch the ends of the pole. If you have a fly that flies into a barn and you shut the doors of the barn, the fly continues to fly around inside the barn, and when you open the doors of the barn, the fly flies out. Why are you assuming the pole is brought to rest inside the barn? You perhaps misunderstand the barn and pole puzzle as it is commonly taught. The pole enters the barn. The doors are briefly shut, while the pole is *still* moving at constant velocity. The doors never touch the ends of the pole. Before the pole reaches the far door, the doors are opened back up. The pole continues to fly out, never having changed speed. You mean ALL THIS TIME you've been flummoxed by the barn and pole paradox BECAUSE YOU CAN'T READ??? But since the doors of the barn don't break, the pole will be able to restore only 1 meter so when Clever Draper goes and measures the length of the trapped pole, Clever Draper clearly sees a 40m long pole, perhaps a few centimetres longer if the doors are slightly deformed. Is this realistic, Clever Draper? A 40m long pole and that's it? Clever Draper, Cleverest Draper, why these zombie tricks again? Look at my initial question and you will see the phrase: "....provided your brothers have forgotten to reopen the doors of the barn "pretty quickly"...." Then your question is, is it a quantitative prediction that an 80m pole will be trapped *intact* in a 40m barn if you decide to keep the barn doors closed? The answer to that is: no, relativity makes no such prediction. If you close the doors and strike one end of a very rapidly moving pole with the barn door, then all sorts of other physics gets involved. But then Clever Draper goes to the place (he is curious this Clever Draper) and measures the length of what was once a 80m long pole but is now something trapped inside the 40m long barn. What is the maximal length of this something trapped inside the 40m long barn? 40m perhaps? Special relativity does not predict even this? No, of course not. Special relativity doesn't have anything to do with the length of a pole after it's been hit with a barn door. Why would you think it does? Any theory is closely related to its implications, even when some of them are absurd. Special relativity predicts that a 80m long object can be trapped inside a 40m long container. Then the description of the state of the trapped object is special relativity's implication. Some time ago we discussed the same problem and then you said, if I am not mistaken, that the density of the trapped object can increase twice. That was special relativity's implication, although idiotic. Pentcho Valev |
#13
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Quantitative Prediction of a Measurable Quantity
On Aug 13, 4:12*pm, Pentcho Valev wrote:
On Aug 13, 9:21*pm, PD wrote: On Aug 13, 1:57*pm, Pentcho Valev wrote: On Aug 13, 6:42*pm, PD wrote: http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/ph...barn_pole.html "These are the props. You own a barn, 40m long, with automatic doors at either end, that can be opened and closed simultaneously by a switch. You also have a pole, 80m long, which of course won't fit in the barn....So, as the pole passes through the barn, there is an instant when it is completely within the barn. At that instant, you close both doors simultaneously, with your switch. Of course, you open them again pretty quickly, but at least momentarily you had the contracted pole shut up in your barn." Bravo Clever Draper! Bulgarians are by no means addled - rather, they adore you and your answers. Just a small elaboration: "the quantitative prediction for the length of the pole in the barn frame is not 80m but 39m" but then, when the pole is safely trapped inside the barn, it will try to restore its proper length (which is 80m). Why would it do that? The doors NEVER touch the ends of the pole. If you have a fly that flies into a barn and you shut the doors of the barn, the fly continues to fly around inside the barn, and when you open the doors of the barn, the fly flies out. Why are you assuming the pole is brought to rest inside the barn? You perhaps misunderstand the barn and pole puzzle as it is commonly taught. The pole enters the barn. The doors are briefly shut, while the pole is *still* moving at constant velocity. The doors never touch the ends of the pole. Before the pole reaches the far door, the doors are opened back up. The pole continues to fly out, never having changed speed. You mean ALL THIS TIME you've been flummoxed by the barn and pole paradox BECAUSE YOU CAN'T READ??? But since the doors of the barn don't break, the pole will be able to restore only 1 meter so when Clever Draper goes and measures the length of the trapped pole, Clever Draper clearly sees a 40m long pole, perhaps a few centimetres longer if the doors are slightly deformed. Is this realistic, Clever Draper? A 40m long pole and that's it? Clever Draper, Cleverest Draper, why these zombie tricks again? Look at my initial question and you will see the phrase: "....provided your brothers have forgotten to reopen the doors of the barn "pretty quickly"...." Then your question is, is it a quantitative prediction that an 80m pole will be trapped *intact* in a 40m barn if you decide to keep the barn doors closed? The answer to that is: no, relativity makes no such prediction. If you close the doors and strike one end of a very rapidly moving pole with the barn door, then all sorts of other physics gets involved. But then Clever Draper goes to the place (he is curious this Clever Draper) and measures the length of what was once a 80m long pole but is now something trapped inside the 40m long barn. What is the maximal length of this something trapped inside the 40m long barn? 40m perhaps? Special relativity does not predict even this? No, of course not. Special relativity doesn't have anything to do with the length of a pole after it's been hit with a barn door. Why would you think it does? Any theory is closely related to its implications, even when some of them are absurd. Special relativity predicts that a 80m long object can be trapped inside a 40m long container. No, it doesn't say that, if by "trapped" you mean "brought to a stop". It says no such thing. Then the description of the state of the trapped object is special relativity's implication. Some time ago we discussed the same problem and then you said, if I am not mistaken, that the density of the trapped object can increase twice. That was special relativity's implication, although idiotic. No, that is not special relativity's implication. That is the implication of the rest of the physics that gets involved when you have a door smacking into a pole. And no, it is not idiotic. Pentcho Valev |
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Quantitative Prediction of a Measurable Quantity
Just on the point of absurdity. Is it absurd to suggest that an SI has
mass ? It seems pretty realistic to me. On Aug 14, 7:12 am, Pentcho Valev wrote: Any theory is closely related to its implications, even when some of them are absurd. Special relativity predicts that a 80m long object can be trapped inside a 40m long container. Then the description of the state of the trapped object is special relativity's implication. Some time ago we discussed the same problem and then you said, if I am not mistaken, that the density of the trapped object can increase twice. That was special relativity's implication, although idiotic. Pentcho Valev |
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Quantitative Prediction of a Measurable Quantity
Anyway, ,
So if quantum computers manages to utilise the atom, as a bit recording device, where 1 integer can be stored using a single atom . . .The total number of integers that can be used for any number, even if in the most effient form such as. . . 9^9^9^9^9^9^9^9^9^9^9^9^9^9 etc etc. . . Which is approx 1.59486 × 10^(55) kg / 1.660538782(83)×10-27 kg After that, I agree that we could resort to other symbols which gave meaning to numbers. for example K^K^K^K^K^K^K^K^K^K^K^K^K^K etc etc. . . However, once you run out of numbers, you run out of numbers of symbols. Beyond this, whetever it was that was recording will have lost mathematical meaning. |
#16
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Quantitative Prediction of a Measurable Quantity
If say, we dedicated an atom to the storage for every second. . .
1.59486 × 10^(55) kg / 1.660538782(83)×10-27 kg would represent the number of seconds recordable. |
#17
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Quantitative Prediction of a Measurable Quantity
That is if we were only using integers of 1 or 0. On the other second
hand, it would represent the number of places for a whole number. In which case all integers would be 9. And still, we would need to reset the count. On Aug 14, 7:38 pm, Y wrote: If say, we dedicated an atom to the storage for every second. . . 1.59486 × 10^(55) kg / 1.660538782(83)×10-27 kg would represent the number of seconds recordable. |
#18
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Quantitative Prediction of a Measurable Quantity
To those people who are afraid by the consequences of everything I've
presented. Don't be. Its just a mathematical explanation. Its not the end of the world at all. On Aug 14, 10:13 pm, Y wrote: That is if we were only using integers of 1 or 0. On the other second hand, it would represent the number of places for a whole number. In which case all integers would be 9. And still, we would need to reset the count. On Aug 14, 7:38 pm, Y wrote: If say, we dedicated an atom to the storage for every second. . . 1.59486 × 10^(55) kg / 1.660538782(83)×10-27 kg would represent the number of seconds recordable. |
#19
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Quantitative Prediction of a Measurable Quantity
Oh look. If an 80m pole dosn't fit in a barn, you will need to bend it or something. Whoever suggests that the doors can close in instant keeping the pole neatly inside for that instant is crackers. If the Maths allow for it, the maths are wrong, simple as that. Only thing required to do, is keep testing the math in a friendly way to ensure that this falsehood doesn't crop up. If it can be demonstrated that it does, then the math is certainly questionable. On Aug 14, 8:01 am, PD wrote: On Aug 13, 4:12 pm, Pentcho Valev wrote: On Aug 13, 9:21 pm, PD wrote: On Aug 13, 1:57 pm, Pentcho Valev wrote: On Aug 13, 6:42 pm, PD wrote: http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/ph...barn_pole.html "These are the props. You own a barn, 40m long, with automatic doors at either end, that can be opened and closed simultaneously by a switch. You also have a pole, 80m long, which of course won't fit in the barn....So, as the pole passes through the barn, there is an instant when it is completely within the barn. At that instant, you close both doors simultaneously, with your switch. Of course, you open them again pretty quickly, but at least momentarily you had the contracted pole shut up in your barn." Bravo Clever Draper! Bulgarians are by no means addled - rather, they adore you and your answers. Just a small elaboration: "the quantitative prediction for the length of the pole in the barn frame is not 80m but 39m" but then, when the pole is safely trapped inside the barn, it will try to restore its proper length (which is 80m). Why would it do that? The doors NEVER touch the ends of the pole. If you have a fly that flies into a barn and you shut the doors of the barn, the fly continues to fly around inside the barn, and when you open the doors of the barn, the fly flies out. Why are you assuming the pole is brought to rest inside the barn? You perhaps misunderstand the barn and pole puzzle as it is commonly taught. The pole enters the barn. The doors are briefly shut, while the pole is *still* moving at constant velocity. The doors never touch the ends of the pole. Before the pole reaches the far door, the doors are opened back up. The pole continues to fly out, never having changed speed. You mean ALL THIS TIME you've been flummoxed by the barn and pole paradox BECAUSE YOU CAN'T READ??? But since the doors of the barn don't break, the pole will be able to restore only 1 meter so when Clever Draper goes and measures the length of the trapped pole, Clever Draper clearly sees a 40m long pole, perhaps a few centimetres longer if the doors are slightly deformed. Is this realistic, Clever Draper? A 40m long pole and that's it? Clever Draper, Cleverest Draper, why these zombie tricks again? Look at my initial question and you will see the phrase: "....provided your brothers have forgotten to reopen the doors of the barn "pretty quickly"...." Then your question is, is it a quantitative prediction that an 80m pole will be trapped *intact* in a 40m barn if you decide to keep the barn doors closed? The answer to that is: no, relativity makes no such prediction. If you close the doors and strike one end of a very rapidly moving pole with the barn door, then all sorts of other physics gets involved. But then Clever Draper goes to the place (he is curious this Clever Draper) and measures the length of what was once a 80m long pole but is now something trapped inside the 40m long barn. What is the maximal length of this something trapped inside the 40m long barn? 40m perhaps? Special relativity does not predict even this? No, of course not. Special relativity doesn't have anything to do with the length of a pole after it's been hit with a barn door. Why would you think it does? Any theory is closely related to its implications, even when some of them are absurd. Special relativity predicts that a 80m long object can be trapped inside a 40m long container. No, it doesn't say that, if by "trapped" you mean "brought to a stop". It says no such thing. Then the description of the state of the trapped object is special relativity's implication. Some time ago we discussed the same problem and then you said, if I am not mistaken, that the density of the trapped object can increase twice. That was special relativity's implication, although idiotic. No, that is not special relativity's implication. That is the implication of the rest of the physics that gets involved when you have a door smacking into a pole. And no, it is not idiotic. Pentcho Valev |
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Quantitative Prediction of a Measurable Quantity
On Aug 14, 2:11*pm, Y wrote:
Oh look. If an 80m pole dosn't fit in a barn, you will need to bend it or something. Whoever suggests that the doors can close in instant keeping the pole neatly inside for that instant is crackers. If the Maths allow for it, the maths are wrong, simple as that. Actually, it's not the math that allows it, it's the laws of physics! Only thing required to do, is keep testing the math in a friendly way to ensure that this falsehood doesn't crop up. If it can be demonstrated that it does, then the math is certainly questionable. On Aug 14, 8:01 am, PD wrote: On Aug 13, 4:12 pm, Pentcho Valev wrote: On Aug 13, 9:21 pm, PD wrote: On Aug 13, 1:57 pm, Pentcho Valev wrote: On Aug 13, 6:42 pm, PD wrote: http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/ph...barn_pole.html "These are the props. You own a barn, 40m long, with automatic doors at either end, that can be opened and closed simultaneously by a switch. You also have a pole, 80m long, which of course won't fit in the barn....So, as the pole passes through the barn, there is an instant when it is completely within the barn. At that instant, you close both doors simultaneously, with your switch. Of course, you open them again pretty quickly, but at least momentarily you had the contracted pole shut up in your barn." Bravo Clever Draper! Bulgarians are by no means addled - rather, they adore you and your answers. Just a small elaboration: "the quantitative prediction for the length of the pole in the barn frame is not 80m but 39m" but then, when the pole is safely trapped inside the barn, it will try to restore its proper length (which is 80m). Why would it do that? The doors NEVER touch the ends of the pole. If you have a fly that flies into a barn and you shut the doors of the barn, the fly continues to fly around inside the barn, and when you open the doors of the barn, the fly flies out. Why are you assuming the pole is brought to rest inside the barn? You perhaps misunderstand the barn and pole puzzle as it is commonly taught. The pole enters the barn. The doors are briefly shut, while the pole is *still* moving at constant velocity. The doors never touch the ends of the pole. Before the pole reaches the far door, the doors are opened back up. The pole continues to fly out, never having changed speed. You mean ALL THIS TIME you've been flummoxed by the barn and pole paradox BECAUSE YOU CAN'T READ??? But since the doors of the barn don't break, the pole will be able to restore only 1 meter so when Clever Draper goes and measures the length of the trapped pole, Clever Draper clearly sees a 40m long pole, perhaps a few centimetres longer if the doors are slightly deformed. Is this realistic, Clever Draper? A 40m long pole and that's it? Clever Draper, Cleverest Draper, why these zombie tricks again? Look at my initial question and you will see the phrase: "....provided your brothers have forgotten to reopen the doors of the barn "pretty quickly"...." Then your question is, is it a quantitative prediction that an 80m pole will be trapped *intact* in a 40m barn if you decide to keep the barn doors closed? The answer to that is: no, relativity makes no such prediction. If you close the doors and strike one end of a very rapidly moving pole with the barn door, then all sorts of other physics gets involved. But then Clever Draper goes to the place (he is curious this Clever Draper) and measures the length of what was once a 80m long pole but is now something trapped inside the 40m long barn. What is the maximal length of this something trapped inside the 40m long barn? 40m perhaps? Special relativity does not predict even this? No, of course not. Special relativity doesn't have anything to do with the length of a pole after it's been hit with a barn door. Why would you think it does? Any theory is closely related to its implications, even when some of them are absurd. Special relativity predicts that a 80m long object can be trapped inside a 40m long container. No, it doesn't say that, if by "trapped" you mean "brought to a stop". It says no such thing. Then the description of the state of the trapped object is special relativity's implication. Some time ago we discussed the same problem and then you said, if I am not mistaken, that the density of the trapped object can increase twice. That was special relativity's implication, although idiotic. No, that is not special relativity's implication. That is the implication of the rest of the physics that gets involved when you have a door smacking into a pole. And no, it is not idiotic. Pentcho Valev |
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