FWIW: ST Enterprise Cancelled

On 3 Feb 2005 16:43:11 GMT, (Andre Lieven)
wrote:

But yes, if you stuck with Ellison's concepts, and pilot script,
which is widely enough available to read, you'd have a shot.

....The best way to do a reimage is to do so in such a way that the
Whining Midget gets not one red cent in royalties.

As he viewed the series as being a search for the mythical control
room, which, when you find it, the series is done.

....Which just shows how little faith he had in the concept. First, you
find the control room, then you spend several episodes and/or a season
getting the control room and the ship back on course, then you find
out that where you're going ain't there no more, so you start looking
for someplace else to go. Then you jump ahead several centuries and
start anew.

Harlie ain't as smart as he claims to be. He's really more mouth than
content when you really get down to it...

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr

OM (om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_researc h_facility.org) writes:
On 3 Feb 2005 16:43:11 GMT, (Andre Lieven)
wrote:

But yes, if you stuck with Ellison's concepts, and pilot script,
which is widely enough available to read, you'd have a shot.

...The best way to do a reimage is to do so in such a way that the
Whining Midget gets not one red cent in royalties.

Well, writers ought to be paid for their work. Take Ellison's work,
and not pay,well, theres a word for that: theft.

As he viewed the series as being a search for the mythical control
room, which, when you find it, the series is done.

...Which just shows how little faith he had in the concept. First, you
find the control room, then you spend several episodes and/or a season
getting the control room and the ship back on course, then you find
out that where you're going ain't there no more, so you start looking
for someplace else to go. Then you jump ahead several centuries and
start anew.

Sure. But, with the budgets that were gonna be available for such
a show, at the time, that wasn't going to happen. And, even if the
UK production deal had happened, instead of the wretched Toronto
studio one, it still wasn't gonna happen.

Harlie ain't as smart as he claims to be. He's really more mouth than
content when you really get down to it...

Well, the shelf full of Hugos and nebulas do speak for themselves.
Plus, hes the only sf/fantasy writers to get a story into the
" best short stories of (year XXXX) " anthology. The added teevee
writers guild awards are in there, as well.

You may not like the guy, and thats your call to make. But,
his writing qualifications are undeniable.

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

Andre Lieven wrote:


But yes, if you stuck with Ellison's concepts, and pilot script,
which is widely enough available to read, you'd have a shot.

As he viewed the series as being a search for the mythical control
room, which, when you find it, the series is done.



Especially when you find out that you yourself are Number 1, instead of
Number 6!
Remember the somewhat unexpected way that Blake's 7 ended...now _that_
was original.
Not terribly upbeat, but original.

Pat

OM wrote:

...The best way to do a reimage is to do so in such a way that the
Whining Midget gets not one red cent in royalties.



And that's just what he is when it comes right down to it, isn't it? And
to think, Isaac Asimov _liked_ this guy... :-\


Then you jump ahead several centuries and
start anew.



When radiation has turned the people onboard into apes.... cute,
personality-filled....

Harlie ain't as smart as he claims to be.



_Nobody_ is as smart as Harlie claims to be.... ;-)

Pat

Andre Lieven wrote:

Sure. But, with the budgets that were gonna be available for such
a show, at the time, that wasn't going to happen. And, even if the
UK production deal had happened, instead of the wretched Toronto
studio one, it still wasn't gonna happen.



Speaking of low budget science fiction- if you go here and download the
theatrical trailer, you can see a very annoying woman singing, and then
you can see the Martian War Machine's legs, and the Handling Machine's
tendrils, Big Ben getting blown apart, and the cheesiest looking green
falling star you ever laid eyes on; and yes- although they don't show
it, the Thunder Child is going to be toasted:
http://www.pendragonpictures.com/WOTWTeaser.html
Yes, it's the "other" War Of The Worlds movie that premieres next month-
the one without Tom Cruise and some no doubt patented Spielbergian
annoying kids.
Whom I sincerely hope the Martians eat.

Pat

Pat Flannery ) writes:
OM wrote:

...The best way to do a reimage is to do so in such a way that the
Whining Midget gets not one red cent in royalties.

And that's just what he is when it comes right down to it, isn't it?

Not really, no.

And to think, Isaac Asimov _liked_ this guy... :-\

For very good reason. I would suggest that if one respected
Asimov, and his work, then one should at least give Ellison a
benefit of the doubt, not only for Isaac knowing Harlan, but
for Isaac allowing Harlan to write the script for I, Robot.

Now, had that script been filmed, it would have been...
magnificent. Asimov said as much.

Then you jump ahead several centuries and start anew.

When radiation has turned the people onboard into apes.... cute,
personality-filled....

g Starship Of The Apes ? Lost In Ape-Space ?

Harlie ain't as smart as he claims to be.

_Nobody_ is as smart as Harlie claims to be.... ;-)

You wanna read Ellison as humble ? Read Harlan's tribute of
Alfie Bester, that was first published in the programme book
of the 1979 Worldcon ( My first one, too ).

The guy is far more complex than many of his detractors
seem to wish he was...

And, his *work* is what it's really all about.

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

Andre Lieven wrote:



...The best way to do a reimage is to do so in such a way that the
Whining Midget gets not one red cent in royalties.


And that's just what he is when it comes right down to it, isn't it?



Not really, no.



He's been bitching for over 35 years about his Star Trek script.
He started complaining about his ex-wife within minutes of divorcing
her, after the horrible week-or-so of marriage
His work is some of the weaker stuff in "Dangerous Visions".*
He likes to complain; he likes to complain _a lot_.



And to think, Isaac Asimov _liked_ this guy... :-\



For very good reason. I would suggest that if one respected
Asimov, and his work, then one should at least give Ellison a
benefit of the doubt, not only for Isaac knowing Harlan, but
for Isaac allowing Harlan to write the script for I, Robot.

Now, had that script been filmed, it would have been...
magnificent. Asimov said as much.


And Harlen would have been ****ed off about the way it was filmed, no doubt.


The guy is far more complex than many of his detractors
seem to wish he was...

And, his *work* is what it's really all about.


I never cared for his work to tell you the truth- it seemed amateurish
and "odd-for-the-sake-of-being-odd-because-that-will-get-noticed" to me.
Just as he himself seems
"loud-for-the-sake-of-being-loud-because-that-will-get-noticed" to me.
Of course I think that around 90% of all science fiction writing has all
the artistic merit of a black-velvet fluorescent Elvis painting, and
that around 5% of the remainder manages to claw itself to the level of a
black-velvet non-fluorescent matador painting.


* Let's face it, after Farmer's "Riders Of The Purple Wage" just about
_any_ story in Dangerous Visions #1 and 2 had a hell of a high bar to
jump over. Dear God, I wish someone would have filmed that; the
contraceptive foam scene alone would have had the audience in fits of
hysteria. John Huston would have made the perfect Grandpa Winnegan.

Pat

Pat Flannery ) writes:
Andre Lieven wrote:

...The best way to do a reimage is to do so in such a way that the
Whining Midget gets not one red cent in royalties.

And that's just what he is when it comes right down to it, isn't it?

Not really, no.

He's been bitching for over 35 years about his Star Trek script.

Su people have been lying about this script, for all of that time.

Roddenberry claimed credit for writing it, for instance. Read Ellison's
book with the same title as the episode of 1996, and see for yourself.
( Specifically, the interview clip where R is asked who *he* based
Edith Keeler on, and he gives a detailed answer, where he says who
*he* based Edith Keeler on. Were Ellison as nasty as you seem to be
claiming, wouldn't he have sued R's ass over that *slander* ? )

And, I can kinda relate: When my divorce was going on, aside from
a circle of close friends, I didn't much talk about it. Didn't want
to overburden people.

But, when the ex started spreading out and out lies, and widely, well,
I could either stay quiet, and let that give the lies some cred, or
I could simply put forth the facts about what was being bullshat about.

So, to me, it seems that Ellison has been far more patient than I
would ever have been, and for a far longer time period: 1966-1996.

Thirty years, when his detractors were writing book after book, and
only when he *replies*, does he get criticised ? That doesn't seem...
right.

He started complaining about his ex-wife within minutes of divorcing
her, after the horrible week-or-so of marriage

So ? Most ex's do stuff like that. You gonna go over to al.support.
divorce and castigate them all for such things ?

His work is some of the weaker stuff in "Dangerous Visions".*

How about all the other stories and books hes done ? You ever
read " Mephisto In Onyx " ?

He likes to complain; he likes to complain _a lot_.

So ? Aren't there a few people here, of whom this could also
be, at times, said ?

And to think, Isaac Asimov _liked_ this guy... :-\

For very good reason. I would suggest that if one respected
Asimov, and his work, then one should at least give Ellison a
benefit of the doubt, not only for Isaac knowing Harlan, but
for Isaac allowing Harlan to write the script for I, Robot.

Now, had that script been filmed, it would have been...
magnificent. Asimov said as much.

And Harlen would have been ****ed off about the way it was filmed,
no doubt.

Can I borrow that crystal ball ? I have some stocks to pick.

Note that Harlan has nothing but good things to say about his no
less than five year association with Babylon 5...

Does he get any credit for that ? Or, do you want to do more of
what you say that he does ?

The guy is far more complex than many of his detractors
seem to wish he was...

And, his *work* is what it's really all about.

I never cared for his work to tell you the truth- it seemed amateurish
and "odd-for-the-sake-of-being-odd-because-that-will-get-noticed" to me.

OK, and thats your call to make, for yourself. But, you cannot deny
that SF has rewarded Ellison, with award after award, and hes done not
too shabbily, in the mainstream, too.

Just as he himself seems
"loud-for-the-sake-of-being-loud-because-that-will-get-noticed" to me.

Funny thing: When it comes to hear him speak and read, and I've had
25 years since the first time I saw him speak at a con, I cannot say
that loudness has been anything other than a common theatrical tool,
the same way, for instance, that Patrick Stewart used variations in
volume to differentiate between different people's voices, when he
performed his one man play of " A Christmas Carol ".

So, when Harlan reads a story, live, of course, he uses volume
changes, as much as any other vocal device, to make it clear who
is speaking the lines.

And, if he were really " trying to get noticed " how come he does so
few cons a year, and why is that true, about the last 20 years ?

Of course I think that around 90% of all science fiction writing has all
the artistic merit of a black-velvet fluorescent Elvis painting, and
that around 5% of the remainder manages to claw itself to the level of a
black-velvet non-fluorescent matador painting.

OK. That, however, doesn't necessarily trump the considered views of
others, including the givers of the various SF awards.

* Let's face it, after Farmer's "Riders Of The Purple Wage" just about
_any_ story in Dangerous Visions #1 and 2 had a hell of a high bar to
jump over. Dear God, I wish someone would have filmed that; the
contraceptive foam scene alone would have had the audience in fits of
hysteria. John Huston would have made the perfect Grandpa Winnegan.

Agreed. That was a kick ass story. But, I well enjoyed, and continue
to enjoy, upon re-readings, many of the others. Including many of
Ellison's, too.

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

Pat Flannery wrote:


OM wrote:

...The best way to do a reimage is to do so in such a way that the
Whining Midget gets not one red cent in royalties.



And that's just what he is when it comes right down to it, isn't it? And
to think, Isaac Asimov _liked_ this guy... :-\



Whining Midget? Hmm.. Sounds like someone should use his voice for
the computer systems in a space station

Andre Lieven wrote:

And, I can kinda relate: When my divorce was going on, aside from
a circle of close friends, I didn't much talk about it. Didn't want
to overburden people.

But, when the ex started spreading out and out lies, and widely, well,
I could either stay quiet, and let that give the lies some cred, or
I could simply put forth the facts about what was being bullshat about.



But consider this: he apparently knew so little about this woman, and
was so clueless about marrying her would be like, that he could only
tolerate the situation for about a week or so...what does that say about
his degree of forethought in regards to getting into this situation? At
the very least it shows that he didn't put enough effort into
understanding what exactly he was getting himself into- and getting
married and having children are the two decisions in one's life that
have the most potential for screwing it up royally if they go wrong- so
why didn't he put more thought into it? He wasn't 16 at the time...
That's the charitable view of the situation...the other alternative
would be that he got married with stars in his eyes, realized it wasn't
what he thought it would be, and promptly chucked the whole thing like a
kid tossing away last week's toy... in short, the actions of a spoiled
child.
He found the puppy, and he got to keep the puppy, but he wasn't up to
feeding it, or cleaning up after it. (There's a "A Boy And His Dog"
analogy in there somewhere- his wife wasn't named "Blood" by any chance?
Maybe it's a menstrual reference).

So, to me, it seems that Ellison has been far more patient than I
would ever have been, and for a far longer time period: 1966-1996.



Are we talking about the Star Trek script or the marriage? The
mini-marriage is described in "Dangerous Visions" (the intro to
"Riders"?) And he was bitching to all and sundry about the Star Trek
script from around ten minutes after he left Roddenberry's office.

Thirty years, when his detractors were writing book after book, and
only when he *replies*, does he get criticised ? That doesn't seem...
right.



He started complaining about his ex-wife within minutes of divorcing
her, after the horrible week-or-so of marriage



So ? Most ex's do stuff like that. You gonna go over to al.support.
divorce and castigate them all for such things ?



Yeah...but for what was it? A _week_?! Dear God, seven days in the fires
of hell! By the time he writes about it in Dangerous Visions the wife
has become a "thing" in his own words IIRC.



His work is some of the weaker stuff in "Dangerous Visions".*



How about all the other stories and books hes done ? You ever
read " Mephisto In Onyx " ?



I ditched reading all sci-fi writing around 1990; in fact, I pretty
much ditched reading all fiction writing at all around the same time. It
was clunkily done in most cases, and the dual threats that can destroy
any writer's art are all-too-obviuos in science fiction in particular;
1.) Knowing your audience too well....tell them what they want to hear
and you'll be rich in no time... so don't give 'em any threats to their
world view...reinforce it, in fact....
Are they social outcasts?
"Hell, son....I'll tell _you_ about social outcasts...social outcasts
who conquered a galaxy, that is!"
Somewhat iffy in the success of their sex life?
"Hell, son....I'll tell _you_ about women....women who grow vaginal
fangs in bed, that is!"
The poor and disenfranchised?
"Hell, son....I'll tell _you_ about someone who didn't have
anything...except of course a alien genetic strand that gave him
superhuman powers, that is!"
Great dreams without the education to realize them?
"Hell son.... they thought he was a crazy no-nothing...right up till
they saw that toy train-based antigravity machine, that is!"
And on, and on, and on....your audience are basically addicts, and the
drug needs to be none to pure to satiate their needs... nor cheap, either.
But it must be administered frequently, lest a debilitating state of
self-reality ensues.

2.) While reinforcing their world view, also start moving them over to
yours, bit-by-bit. Why? Major ego trip!
With fiction it takes a little effort...you're stuck in earth's history
and political systems....but whereas an idea that's obviously completely
crazed if expressed in our own present world isn't going to fly, just
move it a few light years off, and a few years into the future
and.....bingo! The turkey sprouts condor sized wings and starts heading
toward the stratosphere.
"And soon everyone realized that it was possible to build a sound
economic and political system based on the free trade of child slave
labor, and the galaxy became a happy place..."



He likes to complain; he likes to complain _a lot_.



So ? Aren't there a few people here, of whom this could also
be, at times, said ?



Yeah...but not all the time, and so publicly...so very, very, publicly.
The Convention Crowd: "Oh, Harlan's here! Everybody get ready to take
notes...I wonder who he's going to rip up this time?"
Harlan: "TOADBURGERS! That's what I called them, TOADBURGERS! And we all
know what happened THEN, don't we?"

And Harlen would have been ****ed off about the way it was filmed,
no doubt.



Can I borrow that crystal ball ? I have some stocks to pick.



He liked "A Boy And His Dog"; the Feminists didn't, of course, but
didn't that make for a real scene though?
The Convention Crowd: "Oh, boy! Here we go!"
Harlan: "So I said DON'T use that as the last line in the movie....but
it was A PRETTY GOOD line, none the less! And we know what happened
THEN, don't we?"


Note that Harlan has nothing but good things to say about his no
less than five year association with Babylon 5...



Yup...and that Jack The Ripper episode had him written all over it,
didn't it? Because he's got a thing for Jack The Ripper, and it keeps
coming back, like a improperly staked vampire.
Harlan's inspired so many things... what, in detail has he done for
those thing's he's inspired? Stuck the "Harlan Ellison" label on them
for one thing... your mark of quality in the exploitive world of Sci-Fi.

Does he get any credit for that ? Or, do you want to do more of
what you say that he does ?


I just think the guy is a loudmouthed, whining stuffed shirt with an ego
the size of Jupiter who really _enjoys_ being a loudmouthed whining
stuffed shirt with an ego the size of Jupiter...it's his shtick.
But that's just my opinion.





OK, and thats your call to make, for yourself. But, you cannot deny
that SF has rewarded Ellison, with award after award, and hes done not
too shabbily, in the mainstream, too.



See remarks on fiction writing above.
Now Asimov was a great writer; he could write on virtually any subject
well and with real knowledge of it.
I'd hate to see what "The Sensuous Dirty Short Man" by "E" would read like.



And, if he were really " trying to get noticed " how come he does so
few cons a year, and why is that true, about the last 20 years ?



Familiarity breeds contempt, for starters. And also might lower your
speaking fee for those rare appearances, as well.
Besides, having been one of the few sci-fi writers who rose out of the
convention scene, he probably knows all-too-well what a extraordinarily
strange breed of humanity is sitting out there facing towards him.
I'll bet he's got a Taser hidden on him somewhere, at the very least ..
if it were me, I'd suggest an Uzi as well.



Of course I think that around 90% of all science fiction writing has all
the artistic merit of a black-velvet fluorescent Elvis painting, and
that around 5% of the remainder manages to claw itself to the level of a
black-velvet non-fluorescent matador painting.



OK. That, however, doesn't necessarily trump the considered views of
others, including the givers of the various SF awards.



"Cleanest damn syringe you ever saw!"
(The junkies cheer in unison.)




* Let's face it, after Farmer's "Riders Of The Purple Wage" just about
_any_ story in Dangerous Visions #1 and 2 had a hell of a high bar to
jump over. Dear God, I wish someone would have filmed that; the
contraceptive foam scene alone would have had the audience in fits of
hysteria. John Huston would have made the perfect Grandpa Winnegan.



Agreed. That was a kick ass story. But, I well enjoyed, and continue
to enjoy, upon re-readings, many of the others. Including many of
Ellison's, too.



There are a lot of good stories in that first one, Harlan's isn't one of
them.
The second volume was loads weaker.
Neither is as interesting or as informative as Miller's "The Dream Machines"
They are just a way to kill some time, when it comes right down to it.


Pat