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#21
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On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:10:46 -0700, in a place far, far away, Hop
David made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: A stain on our history, Then you admit the American People _haven't_ always been a deterrence from abuse of power? Yes. |
#22
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Jim Oberg wrote: "Hop David" wrote in message After our war with Mexico, the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo gave property rights to those Mexicans who had homes and ranches on what then became U.S.A. territory. These property rights were thrown out the window to accomodate the influx of fortune hunters during the California Gold Rush. In my opinion, this crime against Mexicans was a repetition of the same crime commited many times against the Native American people. ROTFLOL! So those Anglos (few of them the ancestors of today's Americans) were thieves for not preserving the 'ownership' of the thieves who had stolen the land from the Navajo We took land that we acknowledged to be rightfully theirs by treaty. http://www.monterey.org/150years/treaty.html Article VIII We also broke our treaty. But hey, it's OK to lie and steal if you're dealing with liars and thieves. -- Hop David http://clowder.net/hop/index.html |
#23
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Rand Simberg wrote: The aboriginal Americans, for the most part, didn't even have a concept of property rights when it came to land. Which would go hand-in-hand with a mobile form of hunter-gatherer existence; you don't get land ownership till you settle down in one place, and even then it was tribal, not individual ownership of land in the case of the aboriginal Americans. North Dakota's Mandan tribe did settle down in villages, and defended the areas around them- they built earth-lodge structures to live in (these were pretty sound structures, as North Dakota's winter weather demands; I'd hate to think what it must have been like in a teepee at night in a howling blizzard): http://www.kstrom.net/isk/maps/houses/hidatsa.html And of course there is the great Mandan/Welsh mystery: http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/History...uExplorers.htm And here after watching Blazing Saddles, I thought they were all Jewish. (Mel had a little fun with one of the 19th century's greatest and looniest hypothosis...that aboriginal Americans were the 10 lost tribes of Israel...how exactly they were supposed to have gotten here is a very good question that I will leave to the Mormons) Pat |
#24
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Rand Simberg wrote: On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 16:27:25 -0700, in a place far, far away, Hop David made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Most of us have ancestors that have committed crimes. I would guess even you. So does that make it OK to take your property? We didn't take their property because their *ancestors* commited crimes. Those ancestors had no property, as I've already said. No living aboriginal American has had his property taken. (Sigh) Once again, we were talking about the Mexicans in Californa after the Mexican American War. They had property rights granted by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Get it? Not aboriginal Americans. I'll say it slowly: NNNNNoooooootttttt aaaaabbbbbooooorrrrriiiiiggggggiiiiinnnnnaaaaaalll l Aaaaaaaaammmmmmmmeeeeeerrrrrrrriiiiiiicccccccccaaa aaaaaannnnnnnnssssss. Please reread this subthread. You're embarrassing yourself in front of 1000s of people. -- Hop David http://clowder.net/hop/index.html |
#25
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Pat Flannery wrote: (Mel had a little fun with one of the 19th century's greatest and looniest hypothosis...that aboriginal Americans were the 10 lost tribes of Israel...how exactly they were supposed to have gotten here is a very good question that I will leave to the Mormons) Maybe Joseph Smith got this notion from Thor Heyerdahl. -- Hop David http://clowder.net/hop/index.html |
#26
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Henry Spencer wrote: In article , Hop David wrote: There used to be two great powers with Mutual Assured Destruction holding each in check. Now the U.S. is the single great military power. The gap between the U.S. and the 2nd greatest power is large... What then would be the deterrence to prevent the U.S. from abusing its power? M.A.D. never did restrain superpowers from abuse of power very much. Both meddled constantly in the internal affairs of other countries. As witness Afghanistan and Grenada, even invading independent countries was perfectly possible, if you were a little bit careful about *which* country you invaded. (Grenada was fine, Cuba was not...) Restraints on the abuse of power by the US, in particular, really have to come from within. Constitutional restrictions like habeas corpus, the right to a speedy trial, the need to justify a search warrant in detail, the right to legal representation, the requirement that only Congress can declare war, etc., are too important to be set aside indefinitely by a President, no matter what excuses he makes. They are, if anything, even more important in wartime than in peacetime. I hope that our system of checks and balances continues to work. -- Hop David http://clowder.net/hop/index.html |
#27
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In article ,
Rand Simberg wrote: ...If it's OK to steal land from thieves, then nobody has any property rights. The aboriginal Americans, for the most part, didn't even have a concept of property rights when it came to land. Careful here. Remember that the aboriginal cultures which are well documented are typically ones that were encountered centuries *after* first European contact... and in particular, after European epidemic disease had ravaged the locals. The report of the de Soto expedition, which ventured inland in the US southeast circa 1540, shows that the aboriginal cultures found there *then* were far more sophisticated than the ones settlers met there a century or two later: large-scale agriculture, organized religion, centrally-ruled agrarian city-states. The country cousins of the Aztecs, not nomads living in huts. You can bet your booties *those* people had the idea of property rights. But the destruction of their culture by disease epidemics was already visibly underway. By and large, we don't know what the true aboriginal Americans thought of property rights. -- "Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer -- George Herbert | |
#28
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Rand Simberg wrote: On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:02:46 -0700, in a place far, far away, Hop David made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Get it? Not aboriginal Americans. I'll say it slowly: NNNNNoooooootttttt aaaaabbbbbooooorrrrriiiiiggggggiiiiinnnnnaaaaaalll l Aaaaaaaaammmmmmmmeeeeeerrrrrrrriiiiiiiccccccccca aaaaaaaannnnnnnnssssss. Please reread this subthread. You're embarrassing yourself in front of 1000s of people. All right, I'll let you and Oberg argue about that one. I'm possibly arguing a strawman in your case, but I stand by the general point. In the past I _have_ argued against Scott Lowther's claim that it was OK to take Indian land because they had no concept of property rights. However in this thread I was arguing that it was wrong to take land from Mexicans. Oberg's reply seemed to be that it was OK to steal from Mexicans because they stole from Indians. I don't buy that either. But I will note that your argument is undermining Oberg's. -- Hop David http://clowder.net/hop/index.html |
#29
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Hop David wrote: The aboriginal Americans, for the most part, didn't even have a concept of property rights when it came to land. What's your point? Yeah, Clovis or Pedernales? :-) Pat (running) |
#30
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Rand Simberg wrote: That it's meaningless to say that we *stole* it from them. We committed some regrettable crimes against them, including the occasional mass murder, but taking their land, which even they didn't consider theirs, isn't one of them, and they were hardly innocent themselves. They considered the land to be beyond anyone's ownership; the way we consider air and sunlight; if somebody showed up and took all the air of your house while placing it in eternal eclipse, you might be a bit torqued off...even though you never claimed to own the air or sunlight over your property. If that someone was a Caucasian Lakota tribal member, and then gave you a handful of yellow roulette chips to be used at the Crazy Ass Casino, and a Skunk's skull with an odd design painted on it in exchange for that sunlight and air...well, I'd say you'd be getting just what you deserve, kemo sabe. ;-) Pat |
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