Apollo 11 question

I'm currently rereading 'Flight', the autobiography of Chris Kraft. In his
description of the Apollo 11 landing, he quotes Charlie Duke's famous
response to the "Tranquility Base" call:

"Roger, Tranquility, we copy you on the ground!" Then he goes on to say:

On the ground. Is the moon "ground"? Let the philosophers decide that one.

Clearly he's interpreting what Duke said as: "We copy that you are on the
ground." However I'd always understood him to mean: "We copy you down here
on the ground."

Any comments?
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."

On 17/09/2011 8:34 PM, GordonD wrote:
I'm currently rereading 'Flight', the autobiography of Chris Kraft. In
his description of the Apollo 11 landing, he quotes Charlie Duke's
famous response to the "Tranquility Base" call:

"Roger, Tranquility, we copy you on the ground!" Then he goes on to say:

On the ground. Is the moon "ground"? Let the philosophers decide that one.

Clearly he's interpreting what Duke said as: "We copy that you are on
the ground." However I'd always understood him to mean: "We copy you
down here on the ground."

Any comments?

I always thought he meant it to be on the surface.

From Alan Erskine:
On 17/09/2011 8:34 PM, GordonD wrote:

I'm currently rereading 'Flight', the autobiography of Chris Kraft. In
his description of the Apollo 11 landing, he quotes Charlie Duke's
famous response to the "Tranquility Base" call:

"Roger, Tranquility, we copy you on the ground!" Then he goes on to say:

On the ground. Is the moon "ground"? Let the philosophers decide that one.

That question belongs to the realm of lexicography. Here's one
angle: 'Ground' is the past-tense of 'grind'. Considering how fine
the power is on the lunar surface, "ground" is exactly what it is.


Clearly he's interpreting what Duke said as: "We copy that you are on
the ground." However I'd always understood him to mean: "We copy you
down here on the ground."

Any comments?

I always thought he meant it to be on the surface.

It is perfectly clear to me that Duke's meaning was, "We copy that
you're on the lunar surface". It helps to look at the more complete
sequence of radio calls:

-------
Aldrin: "Contact light ... OK, engine stop."

Duke: "We copy you down, Eagle."

Armstrong: "Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed."

Duke: "Roger, Twan... Tranquility. We copy you on the ground. You got
a bunch of guys about to turn blue. We're breathing again."
-------

Here's the audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BvbD-1qZtc&t=8m48s
And the full transcript: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11.landing.html

There's no ambiguity with Duke's previous call, "we copy you down".
He's not saying, "we copy you down here in Houston". He's
acknowledging that the contact light is illuminated, indicating
contact with the lunar ground. And with the engine stopped, the LM
will logically be rested on the lunar surface.

Duke's next call repeats that same information, but he's been
corrected by Armstrong in pointing out that their callsign designation
has changed. Duke made a mistake in that previous call, because the
correct call would have been, "We copy you down, Tranquility".

So Armstrong made it explicit. Not just contact light info combined
with engine stop info, but his firsthand experience of standing there
in the LM landed on the surface of the Moon. The Duke transmission in
question is simply an acknowledgement of everything Armstrong just
communicated: "We copy that you have landed on the ground."

It helps to understand radio terminology. Words like 'roger', 'copy',
'wilco', 'over', 'out', 'five by' all have specific meanings. 'R'oger
means that the radio transmission has been 'r'eceived. (In WWII,
'Roger' was the phonetic alphabet designation for the letter 'r'.)
Duke, after acknowledging that he 'r'eceived Armstrong's transmission,
he performs a common procedure called a 'readback'. He parrots the
information that he received so that the sender gets full confirmation
that the transmission was received accurately. You'll hear this on
NASA air-to-ground all the time. A typical reply from the sender,
after hearing an accurate readback is, "Good readback".


Gordon, if I were to put a probability on your interpretation of
Duke's meaning, I'd give it a fraction of 1% chance. A simple way to
support your view and refute the 'readback' explanation above is to
find any other example of where Duke or any other CAPCOM includes "on
the ground", meaning "on the ground in Ground Control" as part of
their transmission. The argument for your interpretation is that the
very next thing Duke goes into is the reaction of the people in Ground
Control. But I myself don't find that to be compelling against the
common readback practice.

If anyone remains in doubt, someone could always approach Charlie to
get his own elaboration, albeit 4+ decades later.


~ CT

"Stuf4" wrote in message
...
From Alan Erskine:
On 17/09/2011 8:34 PM, GordonD wrote:

I'm currently rereading 'Flight', the autobiography of Chris Kraft. In
his description of the Apollo 11 landing, he quotes Charlie Duke's
famous response to the "Tranquility Base" call:

"Roger, Tranquility, we copy you on the ground!" Then he goes on to
say:

On the ground. Is the moon "ground"? Let the philosophers decide that
one.

That question belongs to the realm of lexicography. Here's one
angle: 'Ground' is the past-tense of 'grind'. Considering how fine
the power is on the lunar surface, "ground" is exactly what it is.

Oh, I never had any doubts about that.

Clearly he's interpreting what Duke said as: "We copy that you are on
the ground." However I'd always understood him to mean: "We copy you
down here on the ground."

Any comments?

I always thought he meant it to be on the surface.

It is perfectly clear to me that Duke's meaning was, "We copy that
you're on the lunar surface".

There's no ambiguity with Duke's previous call, "we copy you down".
He's not saying, "we copy you down here in Houston".

No, I never saw it that way.

It helps to understand radio terminology. Words like 'roger', 'copy',
'wilco', 'over', 'out', 'five by' all have specific meanings. 'R'oger
means that the radio transmission has been 'r'eceived. (In WWII,
'Roger' was the phonetic alphabet designation for the letter 'r'.)

I never knew that.

Gordon, if I were to put a probability on your interpretation of
Duke's meaning, I'd give it a fraction of 1% chance. A simple way to
support your view and refute the 'readback' explanation above is to
find any other example of where Duke or any other CAPCOM includes "on
the ground", meaning "on the ground in Ground Control" as part of
their transmission. The argument for your interpretation is that the
very next thing Duke goes into is the reaction of the people in Ground
Control.

That's probably what was influencing my interpretation of what he said.
However I take your point about the rest of it. Thanks for that.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."

Stuf4 wrote:

It is perfectly clear to me that Duke's meaning was, "We copy that
you're on the lunar surface".

As somebody who knows nothing about anything, I agree.

-------
Aldrin: "Contact light ... OK, engine stop."

Duke: "We copy you down, Eagle."

Armstrong: "Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed."

Duke: "Roger, Twan... Tranquility. We copy you on the ground. You got
a bunch of guys about to turn blue. We're breathing again."

Gets me every time. It deserves translation into other languages
and dialects. As a speaker of British English, may I suggest:
"Roger, twan... Tranquility. You appear to have landed. Good show.
The gentlemen around me are no longer asphyxiating, and appear to be
breathing normally once more".

From Gordon Davie:
"Stuf4" wrote in message
...
From Alan Erskine:
On 17/09/2011 8:34 PM, GordonD wrote:

I'm currently rereading 'Flight', the autobiography of Chris Kraft. In
his description of the Apollo 11 landing, he quotes Charlie Duke's
famous response to the "Tranquility Base" call:

"Roger, Tranquility, we copy you on the ground!" Then he goes on to
say:

On the ground. Is the moon "ground"? Let the philosophers decide that
one.

That question belongs to the realm of lexicography. *Here's one
angle: *'Ground' is the past-tense of 'grind'. *Considering how fine
the power is on the lunar surface, "ground" is exactly what it is.

* - Oops. I typed 'power' when I meant 'powder'.

Oh, I never had any doubts about that.

snip
Gordon, if I were to put a probability on your interpretation of
Duke's meaning, I'd give it a fraction of 1% chance. *A simple way to
support your view and refute the 'readback' explanation above is to
find any other example of where Duke or any other CAPCOM includes "on
the ground", meaning "on the ground in Ground Control" as part of
their transmission. *The argument for your interpretation is that the
very next thing Duke goes into is the reaction of the people in Ground
Control.

That's probably what was influencing my interpretation of what he said.
However I take your point about the rest of it. Thanks for that.

De nada. I'm always glad to post anything that anyone finds helpful.
And thanks for your question. I always appreciate getting challenged
to see things in a point of view I haven't considered before.


~ CT

From Fevric J. Glandules:
Stuf4 wrote:
It is perfectly clear to me that Duke's meaning was, "We copy that
you're on the lunar surface".

As somebody who knows nothing about anything, I agree.

-------
Aldrin: "Contact light ... OK, engine stop."

Duke: "We copy you down, Eagle."

Armstrong: *"Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed."

Duke: *"Roger, Twan... Tranquility. We copy you on the ground. You got
a bunch of guys about to turn blue. We're breathing again."

Gets me every time. *It deserves translation into other languages
and dialects. * As a speaker of British English, may I suggest:
"Roger, twan... Tranquility. *You appear to have landed. *Good show.
The gentlemen around me are no longer asphyxiating, and appear to be
breathing normally once more".

Ha! Those were two fighter pilots landing on the Moon. Another
fighter pilot orbiting the Moon. Yet another talking as CAPCOM.
Another still sitting behind him as Flight Director. I point that out
because a lot of US fighter pilot lingo and customs were adopted from
the RAF during WWII. We got 'roger'='r' from your phonetic alphabet.
You'll hear Apollo astronaut say things like 'Tally Ho' during a
rendezvous, again taken from Spit jockeys who got it from British fox
hunters.

And who knows... Maybe Dave Scott called his LRV the Lorry Roving
Vehicle. His name is Scott because his heritage is Scottish. Not
British, but close.


~ CT

"Stuf4" wrote in message
...

You'll hear Apollo astronaut say things like 'Tally Ho' during a
rendezvous, again taken from Spit jockeys who got it from British fox
hunters.

I believe that was Pete Conrad: "Tally-Ho the Skylab!"
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

"Slipped the surly bonds of Earth...to touch the face of God."

From Gordon Davie:
"Stuf4" wrote in message

...

You'll hear Apollo astronaut say things like 'Tally Ho' during a
rendezvous, again taken from Spit jockeys who got it from British fox
hunters.

I believe that was Pete Conrad: "Tally-Ho the Skylab!"
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

I was expecting you to pipe in on the Dave Scott/land comment. Heh.
But as for Conrad's "Tally Ho" call, there are technical inaccuracies
behind that also...

The precise meaning of "Tally Ho" is the sighting of an enemy. The
origin, again, is a hunting cry. The proper call for sighting a
friendly, one not being hunted as prey, is "Visual". Fighter jocks
will twist that just to add to the pretend drama, as though they were
rolling in for an impending dogfight. Space rendezvous is done at an
absolutely lethargic closure rate compared to even the most basic of
jet fighter maneuvers, so astronauts find other ways to entertain
themselves like that silly twist to a simple radio call.


~ CT

On 09/17/2011 06:26 PM, GordonD wrote:
"Stuf4" wrote in message
...

You'll hear Apollo astronaut say things like 'Tally Ho' during a
rendezvous, again taken from Spit jockeys who got it from British fox
hunters.

I believe that was Pete Conrad: "Tally-Ho the Skylab!"

By the shuttle era the term was formally in the procedures. See p. 95:

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/pdf/539933main_RNDZ_134_F_A_2.pdf