Was there a civilization that existed 13 000 years ago?

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 02:30:46 -0400, "Paul R. Mays"
wrote:


Maybe in a nice class room somewhere but on a few
newsgroups on the internet where the likes of TJ, Smart, Spacey
and others banter about, I think I might just be allowed to do and
say pretty much what ever the **** I want to ... and say it
in any way I wish.. When the time comes that I wish to have
a peer review of some aspect of my own postulates I will take the
time to quote from the books, provide an out line, bibliography,
organized reference lists etc.. Till then I'll just say go to the
big building in your town that has all those dusty old paper things
with all the letters printed in them.... They use to be called books...
and there's a lot of them and many have some neat stuff.....


Start off by learning the difference between "your" and "you're".

I love how kooks get all hostile when you ask hard questions.





--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® member #15-51506-253.
You can email me at: eckles(at)midsouth.rr.com

"The services provided by Sylvia Browne Corporation are highly
speculative in nature and we do not guarantee that the results
of our work will be satisfactory to a client."
-Sylvia's Refund Policy

"No, the next step, Doktor, is that you start diagnosing illegally and
stupidly online, and get your license revoked."
-viveshwar

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:41:28 -0400, "Paul R. Mays"
wrote:


But just to clarify.. I make no claims.. I state that
some people of note have given specific evidence that
supports the view of a larger civilization than what the
present historical record indicate..

None of those you pointed to hold degrees in archeology,
anthropology, geology, etc.... Why do you take the
word of amateurs with questionable backgrounds over
thousands of well studied field workers who really know
their stuff, and are aware of interdisciplinary collaborations?





--
Dr.Postman USPS, MBMC, BsD; "Disgruntled, But Unarmed"
Member,Board of Directors of afa-b, SKEP-TI-CULT® member #15-51506-253.
You can email me at: eckles(at)midsouth.rr.com

"The services provided by Sylvia Browne Corporation are highly
speculative in nature and we do not guarantee that the results
of our work will be satisfactory to a client."
-Sylvia's Refund Policy

"No, the next step, Doktor, is that you start diagnosing illegally and
stupidly online, and get your license revoked."
-viveshwar

"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message ...
Paul R. Mays wrote:


I remember reading about a fantastic claim that the earth was round
at one time... then some idiot made the claim that the earth actually
orbited the sun... those fools... oh yea... they were right after all...

They were believed AFTER the evidence was in hand, not before. Did you
know that a broken 12 hour clock tells the right time twice a day?

Bob Kolker

except that Paul's clock strikes 13 o'clock. totally unreliable.


Paul is a Klassic Kook. his current gem of an argument is of the
"they laughed at Einstein, just like they're laughing at me" variety.

notice how he continues to evade discussion of contrary evidence.

In article , DrPostman
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:41:28 -0400, "Paul R. Mays"
wrote:


But just to clarify.. I make no claims.. I state that
some people of note have given specific evidence that
supports the view of a larger civilization than what the
present historical record indicate..

None of those you pointed to hold degrees in archeology,
anthropology, geology, etc.... Why do you take the
word of amateurs with questionable backgrounds over
thousands of well studied field workers who really know
their stuff, and are aware of interdisciplinary collaborations?

Because they agree with his preconceived ideas.

WHAT DO I WIN?!!?!!


-=-=-=-=-

"Paul R. Mays" wrote in message
...


"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:




Yes...

During the ice age? Where and with what evidence do you believe it?

There were humans and human societies 13,000 ybp but did they constitute
a civilization in the sense of Egypt or Babylon?

Bob Kolker





First its actually a bit older than 13k more like
15 to 20 k

Try this.. Don't consider any point of view
but your own and look at 3 points and come up
with a better idea....

First: DNA Bottle neck.. Mitochondria DNA shows
a almost ELI event about 10 to 15 k ago that left
a small segment to repopulate of possible a few k
people world wide.

Second: Map the positions and mathematical symmetry
of the locations of Easter Island, Plains of Gaza, and
the plains of Nasser (sp) .. I will not tell you what I
think you will find.. you just look and make up your
mind..

Third: Map all the pyramids in Gaza... the bent, the stepped
the 3 main and the Red and the grey... add the location of
the Nile river and match that map to the Orion Constellation...
Then go to your trusty star map software and back it through
time till to only point that it matches the relationships and

(snip)

What is this star map software?

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 06:46:32 -0400, "Robert J. Kolker"
wrote:


SNIP


Was there a civilization that
e isted 13,000 years ago?

Yep, but also 280,000,00 million
years ago -- and many pperiods in time
that were in-between, if not even farther
back.

But, understand, there were NEVER
any cave men -- that is, human beings
who had evolved from ameoba who grunted
and groaned and pulled women by their
hair for the purpose of copulation.

Oh, sure, they wore animal skins and
lived in caves. But that's only because
their civilizations -- as they knew it --
were virtually wiped out by horrific
catastrophes.

The survivors were up a creek without
that proverbial paddle, with just about
everything of their civilization utterly
destroyed.

Sort of like what would happen now if
another mild-boggling earth-girdling
catastrophe occurred, and only sporadic
pockets of survivors.

All we'd have would be the clothes on
our back -- no houses, no cars, no store-bought
food, no electricity, no banks, no money
(wouldn't be worth anything anyway), NO
NOTHING!

EXCEPT the battle for to stay alife under
conditions that would be incredibly worse than
we can even imagine.

I'm ready for the next question.


===============================================

PETRIFIED BONES, TEETH AND SOFT ORGANS
(Physical Evidence of Horrific Catastrophe?)

(All Discovered Between Anthracite Veins)

================================================= =

OLDEST HUMAN SKULL EVER FOUND

http://www.edconrad.com/images/z11calv.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/images/krogwskull.jpg

Wilton Krogman, one of the world's foremost experts
on human anatomy, holds what he had identified as
a petrified human calvarium, a skull with the eye sockets
broken off, that was discovered between Pennsylvania's
anthracite veins. He is shown at his desk at the Cooper
Clinic in Lancaster, Pa., where moments later he beckoned
a colleague -- a medical doctor -- to examine "the oldest
human skull ever found."

A CATscan was performed on this specimen with
favorable results.

http://www.edconrad.com/images/catcalv.jpg

Meanwhile, Haversian canals were identified in the cell
tructue, the tell-tale sign of bone. And dried blood was
found on the specimen during testing at American Medical
Laboratories in Chantilly, Va.

http://www.edconrad.com/images/z11calv.jpg

This is the official report from AML which had performed
Calculus Analysis by Crystallography. The final report,
dated April 21, 2000," was issued by Dr. Nathan Sherman,
director of laboratories.

"The specimen consists of 1 irregularly
shaped, brown calculus weighing less
than 0.0010 grams and measuring 1X1X0.5
mm. No nidus is observed. The calculi
indicates a composition of dried blood
intermingled with a few small crystals
resembling calcium oxalate dihydrate."

http://www.edconrad.com/images/z12calv.jpg

http://www.edconrad.com/images/z13cav.jpg


=============================================

OTHER PETRIFIED BONES, TEETH AND
SOFT ORGANS FOUND BETWEEN COAL VEINS

Here'sa petrified human femur still embedded in slate.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Petrified/z8femur.jpg

Here's a petrified human finger, with fingernail:
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/FINGER/MVC-008S.JPG
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/FINGER/MVC-011S.JPG

Here's a petrified human toe (with toe nail), found only
10-15 feet from the petrified finger.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Au29/MVC-017S.JPG

Here are the petrified human finger and the petrified human
toe shown together.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Au29/MVC-016S.JP

Here's the specimen that Krogman identified as a tibia. It contains
Haversian canals, proof of bone, and dried blood was found on it
during American Medical Laboratory testing. This is the specimen
that was fraudulently tested by Andrew MacRae (who produced
microscopic photos of the cell structure of a rock on the false
pretext that he was showing the cell structure of this specimen).
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Petrified/newtibia.jpg

This is the boulder containing the complete human skull.
Testing has confirmed the presence of Haversian canals
and American Medical Laboratories discovered it contains
dried blood.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Petrified/skullb.jpg

Here's a petrified human mandible (frontal).
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Newpix5/MVC-002S.JPG

Here's a portion of a human mandible (side).
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Bones/MVC-006S.JPG

Here's a giant petrified tooth.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Petrified/1tooth.jpg

Here's a petrified dinosaur foot still embedded in slate.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Newpix3/z3dino.jpg

Here's a petrified fetus of some large animal.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Petrified/MVC-013F.JPG

Here's another petrified fetus, still embedded in slate.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Day/MVC-005S.JPG

Here are several views of portion of a giant prehistoric
scorpion
identified as such by Krogman.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Scorpion/MVC-001S.JPG
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Scorpion/MVC-010S.JPG
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Scorpion/MVC-020S.JPG

Here's a photo of the same portion of a petrified giant
scorpion -- found 22 years ago -- alongside one found just
weeks ago.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/SCORPIONS/MVC-039S.JPG

Here are two views of a piece of wood that appears to have
been handcarved for use as a tool or a weapon.
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Tool/MVC-003S.JPG
http://www.edconrad.com/ebay/Tool/MVC-005S.JPG

Ed Conrad
http://www.edconrad.com

Day by day destroying the myth of man's evolution.

In sci.physics, Paul R. Mays

wrote
on Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:11:29 -0400
:

"Carl R. Osterwald" wrote in message
...
In article , DrPostman
wrote:

On 10 Oct 2003 07:06:28 -0700, (Jack) wrote:


the same glaciers that flash froze all those mammoths?


Devious fiends!

I demand an FBI investigation into this stonewalling!


-=-=-=-=-

Yes... we must find that second spear chucker ... that
damage can not be explained by the "single spear" theory


Did they have 6-story buildings and grassy knolls in prehistoric times? :-)

--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.

Ed Conrad wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 06:46:32 -0400, "Robert J. Kolker"
wrote:


SNIP


Was there a civilization that
e isted 13,000 years ago?

Yep, but also 280,000,00 million
years ago -- and many pperiods in time
that were in-between, if not even farther
back.


Ed Conrad
http://www.edconrad.com

Day by day destroying the myth of man's evolution.


I'm not sure what number exactly you were trying to write above, but
if civilized man has been around for hundreds of millions of years,
and if evolution is not the answer for his origin, then were did he
come from, or when was he created? And how long exactly has he been
here?

Double-A

"Jack" wrote in message
om...
"Paul R. Mays" wrote in message
...

All I'm saying is there
is a lot of evidence .... is it absolute proof... nope... in
large part because we have a model that precludes the
possibility

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?
I have no theory, It's not my research and I never
said that proof is completely excepted on either side..

We are finding new stuff every day about all kinds of stuff..
and the theory has physical evidence.. Is there evidence
that some people interpret as proof that the theory of a civilization
existing before the end of the last ice age is false ... yep...
Is there other evidence that some people interpret as proof that
the theory of a civilization did exist before the end of the last
ice age... yep...

But the theory ( not mine ) does not defy proof and is faulsafiable
and physical evidennce is avalible to any that wish to take the time to
study the possibility... Is it enough evidence to rise to the level
required to set aside existing theory.. of course not... extrodanary
claims requires extrodanary proof... But there is evidence... lots
of evidence... and we are finding more all the time..


how convenient. not only does your theory defy proof or disproof
(which makes it a nontheory, even on the art bell newsgroup), you flat
out ignore contrary evidence that falsifies your claim.


and will make even very good evidence suspect
for a long time until further evidence is found that answers
some of the questions raised by the writers and researches I
posted links for...

great idea. shift the burden of proof to people who disagree with
your claims, demand that they disprove your speculation.

Yep.. no doubt about it.. you have a reading comprehension problem...

Please point to any where I even suggest that the burdon of
proof is anything other that the producers of a theory... But..
Its up to those that oppose a claim to actually research the
provided evidence of a claim before it can be dismissed out
of hand... and since its not my theory I find that I am not
oblidged to detail each and every piece of presented evidence
produced by many that have spent many years actually researching
and going to the sites, documenting the finds, writing the books...
that those that object to the theory refuse to study...




I'm just pointing out that some people
want others to do all the thinking and foot work while all
they can do is rant without even looking at evidence
provided because they didn't get a committee to tell them
the evidence is OK...


you're just crying Konspiracy, a standard tactic of kooks everywhere.


Yep.. think you need a few classes at Evelyn Woodheads Reading dynamics
in order to fix that comprehension issue... Cause I never even hinted
at conspiracy.... No where... get back to me when you get to the
point in your classes to re-read what I said and respond to what I
actually said and not what your issue let's you understand

"Thomas McDonald" wrote in message
...
"Paul R. Mays" wrote in message
...

"Thomas McDonald" wrote in message
...
"Paul R. Mays" wrote in message
...

"Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message
...


Paul R. Mays wrote:

Cities under a few hundred feet of water and 90 or so
feet of ocean debris can wipe a few traces.. and how
much of a trace would you say a 200 foot tall stone
building would leave... after being scraped over by a
couple miles of ice.... for a 1000 years or so...

You have not produced the means to distinguish between no such
city
ever, and a city wiped clean. In the absence of evidence you have
not
a
square yard to stand on. All you offer us if feeble speculations
not
backed up by anything other than your foolish fantasizing.

Bob Kolker



I'm not the expert and I make no claims.. I have read and
considered
many areas of studies and I have found reasonable evidence provided
by many writers that actually got off their asses ( unlike you) and
researched the possibilities... Just because you have a limited
mental
ability to comprehend evidence presented by many well informed and
respected researchers does not mean that a simple layman as I would
waste my time repeating the writings of those that have spent their
lives actually doing the research in order to spoon feed your
knowledge
void.

http://www.guardians.net/hawass/remnants.htm
http://www.grahamhancock.com/news/index.php
http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/bookshop.php
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/nation/2962443.htm
http://archives.mundoacuatico.com/oc...iousstones.pdf




http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...kencities.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1923794.stm




http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in522626.shtml
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/detail.asp?ID=32604&GRP=A
http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html
http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue1...apanunder.html


That's a start but there's a much longer list....

Paul,

Do you really suggest that the above list are the 'references' you
are
using?

You do not have a clue about providing references in an orderly
and
meaningful way, do you? Most of the items are crap, already shown to
be
wrong. Several are links to on-line bookstores, not to information
that
can
be reviewed. One, a CBS news site, gets very wrong the date at which
the
Aztecs first learned about Teotihuacán; and is, in any case, a
journalistic
work (as are most of the rest of your "references"), not scientific
work.

You might be posting from alt.fan.art-bell; I don't know. But the
other
three groups you're cross-posting to are sci. groups, and in science,
evidence is presented carefully, is discussed and debated in a
scientific
way, and is not conducted via dueling news stories.

Maybe in a nice class room somewhere but on a few
newsgroups on the internet where the likes of TJ, Smart, Spacey
and others banter about, I think I might just be allowed to do and
say pretty much what ever the **** I want to ... and say it
in any way I wish.. When the time comes that I wish to have
a peer review of some aspect of my own postulates I will take the
time to quote from the books, provide an out line, bibliography,
organized reference lists etc.. Till then I'll just say go to the
big building in your town that has all those dusty old paper things
with all the letters printed in them.... They use to be called books...
and there's a lot of them and many have some neat stuff.....




Tom McDonald
remove 'nohormel' to reply



I'm not writing a dissertation for peer review folks....
I could sit down and go through the many books on the
subject ( I really hope you guys don't really rely on the
internet as your primary information source) then individually
post a series of supporting links and a complete bibliography
of all reference material... But I really don't care that much...

If you carefully read what I have written through this thread you
might notice that I said these are not my suggestions of evidence...

These are positions made by many writers, some I fully agree read
the evidence and make statements that are far fetched... But they
point to Evidence..... not proof... and many of the writers in the
book listing pages have many pages of calculations, physical
objects and a host of very specific pieces of evidence. To
suggest that we all should give up reading the books, and just
stick to getting your knowledge base on the internet, is a good
way to examine the presented evidence is a whole new thread...

The links I put up were just a quick capture and were not a
follow up to some claim of proof of anything.. Just a few
bits with some names of books that you can actually read and
get some very detailed pieces of presented evidence.. some of
the writers may from time to time make wild ass claims as to
what they think the evidence means but it does not make the
evidence they provide not have value.. If I found a buried bag
with a 3 pound diamond in it and claim that it must have been
left by aliens, that is a foolish claim, but the diamond a very
interesting find worthy of further study all by itself...


I'll just ask you just one thing and see if you will actually do
your own leg work and see if there's something a bit weird...

Map all the pyramids around Gaza ..... Match the positions
of the 7 stars of the Orion constellation on any star charting
software .... Rotate the constellation backward in time until
the positions of all 7 of the Gaza pyramids match the positions
of the 7 stars in the constellation... Thinks that's bunk don't ya...
Ya think its just some wild claim... Try it....

Then think about our present model...

Paul,

Do you really think that no one here has done what you say we should
do?

Not at all... some have actually read some of the theories and then
went and followed up to see if what was said to be was actually the
reality. But many read a theory that due to presentation or personal bias
then is dismissed without even actually considering the evidence
used in forming the theory ( even if the theory seems idiotic)

I addressed those comments to the poster that ( maybe it was you
I really don't remember ) that wanted me to provide evidence of
MY theory so I point to a page with books on it and was responded
to as if they ,he, whoever wanted me to rewrite the books and post them
so he, they, it could see MY proof.... I , using sarchasim, said.. get
the **** to a libery..


I've read widely in mainstream and alternative literature. I have the
handicap of two years of advanced study in archaeology, and two more in
psychology and counseling, so perhaps you can find some way to discount
that, too. In addition, I've written a fair amount of news stories, and I
know the difference between journalism and scholarship.

As far as your education.. I of course could care less .. just as you
could care less for me to document my back ground.. I'll let you do a
search for Paul Mays on the net and you can research for your self...

But needless to say no amount of education in any field is worth a
plug nickle on a newgroup as a flag to wave.. Only the ability
to use that knowledge in the areana of ideas counts here....


Your right!!! I did find a way to discount it didn't I.....



Much of the calculation, measurement, etc. of artifacts and sites you
talk about is GIGO, and I think you know it.

Yep I do.. never said other wize... But are you telling me that you did
as I suggested and referanced a map of Gaza and Orion as I mentioned?

Please tell us there is absolutlly nothing there that can be considered
evidence... Forget any other persons GI... use your own DI (data In)
and give us the GO on what you find...


If there is ever to be real
discovery of reliable evidence of an ice-age civilization, it will be made
by mainstream science if it comes up with anomolies that can't be
otherwise
explained. I think even the woo-woos prefer to reference, for example,
Schoch to West, and for good reason; Schoch is a scientist, and he will
not
go along with ideas that have not been validated scientifically. I refer
you to his work on the "Yonaguni monuments".

I agree totally.. I would not "go along with ideas that have not been
validated
scientifically" either and I have never stated that the theory is proven
only that
there is a large body of evidence... Now I don't know if you ever looked at
the side scan images of the possible find off Cuba but its very
interesting..
So.. the question is when National Geo. goes back for a more in-depth study
in a year or so will the finding of a human habitation at 1000 foot depth
be enough to consider the possibility that we don't have it quite right...




BTW, your frequent suggestion that people here go out and read books
is
insulting; in the sci. groups at least, it is coals to Newcastle.

Good.. if it takes a few insults to get the few that think the internet is
a
primary reading source to get off there asses and read a bit more.. My
job is done..

I could
ask what mainstream books (although I will expand that to include
scientific
journals) on these issues _you've_ read; you know, from that big building
in
your town with all those musty books? If it isn't at least equal to the
type of work you've mentioned so far, then you have absolutely no room to
preach at anyone else.

I have read every book on the page link I sent.. I have a Bach in
Electromachanical
Eng, I have close to 30 certs in controls technology, worked as a missile
tech on nukes
in the army, and have around 150 automated transfer line systems that I have
designed
still pumping out cars, brakes, pipe fittings and a few hundred products.
Now none of
that really matters except to point that to have my background under my belt
I have
read a lot of them dusky, musky old paper things... And I am fully versed
on the
present theory of human population growth.. the theories of a single
migration to
north America.. the multiple migration theories, the early stoneage
settlements
, the finds of the writings on the upper roof chambers of the queens chamber
in
the Kufoo pyramid , the water cut gulley around the Sphinx, the lost
villages
of the workers said to have built the pyramids, the impactor of 65 million
bc,
etc.etc.. I also have seen evidence that we are missing some pieces and
have
found many pieces that just don't fit in the current view...




--
Tom McDonald
remove 'nohormel' to reply




Paul R. Mays
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Some where within the Quantum State
Http://Paul.Mays.Com
http://paul.mays.com/resume.html

"Almost all really new ideas have a certain aspect of foolishness when
they are first produced." - Alfred North Whitehead