A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Space Science » Space Science Misc
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old November 8th 03, 11:03 PM
Pat Flannery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Al Jackson wrote:




More on this. It seems von Braun mentioned a piloted A9 in his Army
Ordnance report in 1945, most of which was republished in:

"Survey of Development of Liquid Rockets in Germany and Their Future
Prospects," Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, Vol. 10,
No. 2, Mar. 1951, pp. 75-80.


Oh, there was a manned A9 studied; it just wasn't the delta-winged one
as the upper stage of the A10, but the swept-wing fly alone variant with
the ramjet hanging off the bottom (the one shown in the V Missiles book)
The intention was to make it into a super high altitude and speed
reconnaissance aircraft; the Luftwaffe looked it over....and told von
Braun that- as he claimed- something flying at over a hundred thousand
feet and over Mach 3 would be immune from interception...but something
flying a forty thousand feet at 500 mph would also be immune from
interception, and a hell of a lot easier to build; and the Arado Ar-234C
four-engined derivative of the Ar-234 jet reconnaissance bomber could do
just that.
But the rocket/ramjet A9 became the basis for the North American project
NA-704; which was basically an unmanned rocket/ramjet A9 converted to a
canard configuration, and with a ramjet on both the upper and lower tail
fin- three of these were built, but none were flown... then North
American revised the design to put the rocket motor and its propellants
into a separate booster for the missile (another German idea, for a
missile called "The Horse And Rider") and the Navaho missile came into
being (there is a detailed cutaway of the NA-704 in G. Harry Stine's
"ICBM" book).

Pat

  #22  
Old November 9th 03, 01:09 AM
Scott Lowther
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Pat Flannery wrote:

Oh, there was a manned A9 studied; it just wasn't the delta-winged one
as the upper stage of the A10, but the swept-wing fly alone variant with
the ramjet hanging off the bottom (the one shown in the V Missiles book)
The intention was to make it into a super high altitude and speed
reconnaissance aircraft


Errr... I was with you up to the last two words. The references I've
got, including the 1946 transript of the von Braun debriefing, call it
nothing more than an early X-15... no military potential at all.

into a separate booster for the missile (another German idea, for a
missile called "The Horse And Rider")


Never heard of that one. References?

(there is a detailed cutaway of the NA-704 in G. Harry Stine's
"ICBM" book).


Is there? There isn't one in *my* copy. But then, I've got the full-rez
scan that this http://www.up-ship.com/Stuff/navajosmall.jpg was made
from (at 15% scale), so there. :P

--
Scott Lowther, Engineer
Remove the obvious (capitalized) anti-spam
gibberish from the reply-to e-mail address

  #23  
Old November 9th 03, 08:57 AM
Pat Flannery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Scott Lowther wrote:


Errr... I was with you up to the last two words. The references I've
got, including the 1946 transript of the von Braun debriefing, call it
nothing more than an early X-15... no military potential at all.

Well, it says that on Encyclopedia Astronautica:
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/a6.htm
....and we all know that THE SITE is infallible as a source of
information; just because the site still lists Cassini as presently en
route to Venus http://www.astronautix.com/craft/cassini.htm, this
shouldn't reflect on the A6/A9 stuff...




into a separate booster for the missile (another German idea, for a
missile called "The Horse And Rider")



Never heard of that one. References?


And all the books that got put back on the shelf come right back off
again....and will try to track down a reference for it. I'll also put
the question up on sci.space.history, so that Henry Spencer can tell us
about it in detail.
I've read about it in numerous places- generally in regard to the
postwar Soviet program; but have never been able to track down even a
sketch of the damned thing*- it was supposed to be an A4 with a ramjet
driven missile stuck on the side Navaho-style (or possibly on top- this
is one of the things that the expatriate Germans worked on in the Soviet
Union after the war as a follow-on to the the Peenemunde work on the
concept; this might be called the father of the Soviet EKR missile
design http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/g3.htm
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/ekr.htm )




(there is a detailed cutaway of the NA-704 in G. Harry Stine's
"ICBM" book).



Is there? There isn't one in *my* copy.


Whoops, wrong book! Try page 89 of "The X-Planes" by Jay Miller 1988
edition (I don't have the updated edition, but it's under the X-10
section in the edition I have.)

But then, I've got the full-rez
scan that this http://www.up-ship.com/Stuff/navajosmall.jpg was made
from (at 15% scale), so there.


THANK YOU! That is a very slick illustration of it. Does it look to you
like it uses a separate fuel for the ramjets, or if the rocket fuel is
also used for fueling the jet engines? It's somewhat difficult to
determine if has two or three propellant tanks...lot of the Bomarc in
that design, isn't there?

Pat

*Actually, I have a side and top-view painting of it...and I treat those
paintings with every bit as much trust as I treat the Nazi Flying Saucer
cutaways, even though they're not by the Boys From Barcelona. It's in
the book book "Hitler's Siegswaffen, Band 2- Star Wars 1947" along with
my used-without-permission drawing of the hypothetical German atomic
bomb from the Luft 46 site (downloaded from the web in such a way that
the parts identification doesn't line up with the writing next to it),
the Stuka armed with the atomic bomb (so, you pull out of the dive as
the bomb releases at around 200 feet, and then...) and the type XXI
submarine with the Golf class conning tower on it- bet you didn't know
that the German's even had a plan for an SLBM missile sub in World War
II, did you? Vell, Schweinhund, der are HUNDREDS of secret Reich
projects you Americans knew nothing about! Velcro was originally called
"Der Grossekleinenhooken"! Duct Tape was originally known as
"Uberstickenstuffentappen"! Did you ever see a scented urinal cake prior
to 1946? NEIN! IT VAS ANOTHER STOLEN TRIUMPH OF DER GERMAN ENGINEERING!
....and frankly, I've never had the sick urge to look up what exactly
"Der Reprassentant des Haigerloch Atombomben-Museums auBerte gegennuber
dem amerikanischem Forscher Flannery, daB, obwohl in Haigerloch keine
Atombehalter gefunden wurden, dies nicht bedeutet, daB sie nicht
existieten. Die suche geht also weiter!" in the book translates to; but
I think this could well be something regarding the torch-bearing mob
from Haigerloch that showed up at the castle shortly after (the since
revised) Part 1 of the Luft 46 article went up on the web; and I was
informed that for the third time in 20 years their desperately needed
tourist industry was going to by annihilated by spurious concerns over
plutonium contamination.
Even as I write, babies go without milk in Haigerloch; I think this is
one of those bat-wings and barbed tail things at death; I'll say hello
to General Kammler for everybody. Haigerloch is safe- there is no
plutonium lying about....there is that vampire that lives in the
vicinity, but if you confine your tourism to the daylight hours, and eat
garlic at every meal, you should be perfectly safe.

  #24  
Old November 9th 03, 01:33 PM
Pat Flannery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Scott Lowther wrote:

I thought they were supposed to be in Spain.



Nope. That would have required a conquest of Spain... certainly the
Nazis thought they could do it, but one more headache. The A-9/10
actually had some launch sites under construction in France, IIRC.



Okay, nothing on the "Horse and Rider" yet; but after several hours of
digging around in my books; I find a photographic reproduction of a
notebook page on graph paper from the A9/A10 project on page 101 of
Ernst Klee and Otto Merk's "The Birth Of The Missile" E.P Dutton & Co.
Inc.,1965 (introduction by WvB- so I think we can assume that it gets
the seal of approval) which has the distance and trajectory figures for
A9/A10 launches from Ouessant, France (5 degrees West; 48.45 degrees
North) and Cape da Roca, Portugal (so I was at least close) (9.45
degrees West; 37.75 degrees North) to New York City, Pittsburgh, and
Washington D.C.- the document has a number on it: "2/1-2"- but whether
this is a date, or a file number I don't know. (the photo-reproduction
of the drawing of the six thrust chamber A10 motor on page 100 has
"Archiv Nr..................Seite 69/6" on it, with the "69/6"
handwritten in.... as the "2/1-2" is also).

Pat

  #25  
Old November 9th 03, 03:31 PM
Al Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Scott Lowther wrote in message ...
Al Jackson wrote:

Scott Lowther wrote in message ...
P.S. Sadly, Mark Wade is continuing the mythology that the A-9/A-10 ICBM
was to be manned. Bah!


I am not so sure of that!

Check out

http://www.luftarchiv.de/

search on A9 and you will see several versions of a piloted A9, but will
have to be able to read German. My German is not that good so I cannot
tell if there is historical documents to back this up, on that page.
Tho there is a drawing of that page that looks as if it came from some
archive!


There is a pen-and-ink B&W sketch of the research manned A-9, of unknown
provenance, and color art done by Miranda in the 1990's. Not exactly
conclusive. As Pat mentioned, Miranda also has some nice artwork of
German flying saucers...


You know , I think when I was a kid I saw a drawing of the piloted A9
in Rockets, Jets, Guided Missiles and Spaceships (1951), Fletcher
Pratt ,
the artwork was by Jack Coggins.
Alas , I lost my copy many many years ago, but might be
mis-remembering?!

  #26  
Old November 9th 03, 03:47 PM
Al Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Pat Flannery wrote in message ...
Al Jackson wrote:

But no on the A11.
Dieter Hoelsken, documents this in V- Missiles of the Third Reich*,
monogram Aviation Publications, 1994. There is a document at the
Bundesarchiv (Military) dated 1943!, that describes the A11, in fact a
theoretical model for a A9/A10/A11 was calculated. See the note of
page 256 of Hoelsken's book, and footnote 52.

In the Monogram Books edition, it's on page 265 and footnote #52.

By the by , Hoelsken publishes a drawing of the piloted A9 on page 264
of V- Missiles of the Third Reich, but gives no historical
documentation.

It's the only known wartime drawing of the manned A-9 variant; it was
supposed to be used as a reconnaissance machine. It's also shown in
G.Harry Stine's "ICBM" book.


So it really is from German WWII documents?
Hoelsken, who is so carefull, does not , I think give a footnote to
document it.

By the by in the English translation of Dornbergers "V2 -- Der Schuss
ins Weltall" (Bechtle Verlag 1952) which I never owned, there was a
beautiful 'slick
paper' plate drawing of the A9/A10, looked like a an airbursh.
I guess it came from Dornbergers own collection.
Alas, the German edition was reprinted recently in paper back, I
bought a copy, but the drawing is repoduced on plain paper, ack!
The 1952 book is a 'rare-book' right now.

  #27  
Old November 9th 03, 05:45 PM
Scott Lowther
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Al Jackson wrote:

You know , I think when I was a kid I saw a drawing of the piloted A9
in Rockets, Jets, Guided Missiles and Spaceships (1951), Fletcher
Pratt ,
the artwork was by Jack Coggins.


Yup. There is such a sketch. It's basically the manned A-9 art that's
floating around, but without the ramjet underneath.

--
Scott Lowther, Engineer
Remove the obvious (capitalized) anti-spam
gibberish from the reply-to e-mail address

  #28  
Old November 9th 03, 06:38 PM
Scott Lowther
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Pat Flannery wrote:

Well, it says that on Encyclopedia Astronautica:
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/a6.htm


Urk. That is NOT the A-6. It's yet another Miranda/Mercado invention.


Whoops, wrong book! Try page 89 of "The X-Planes" by Jay Miller 1988
edition (I don't have the updated edition, but it's under the X-10
section in the edition I have.)


Yup, it's there in the new edition as well.


But then, I've got the full-rez
scan that this http://www.up-ship.com/Stuff/navajosmall.jpg was made
from (at 15% scale), so there.


THANK YOU! That is a very slick illustration of it. Does it look to you
like it uses a separate fuel for the ramjets, or if the rocket fuel is
also used for fueling the jet engines?


It has three tanks: a forward LOX tank, a mid "JP-X" tank and an aft
alcohol tank, sharing a bulkhead with the JP-X tank. The alcohol was
used for the V-2 derived rocket engine, the JP-X for the ramjets. On the
really very nice and large inboard profile I got of the NA-704, the
tanks are called out explicitly... but the rocket engine has been
white-outted. Weird. The artwork all showed somethign very V-2esque, and
the V-2 engine was hardly a State Secret by that point; no idea what the
deal was.


*Actually, I have a side and top-view painting of it...and I treat those
paintings with every bit as much trust as I treat the Nazi Flying Saucer
cutaways, even though they're not by the Boys From Barcelona. It's in
the book book "Hitler's Siegswaffen, Band 2- Star Wars 1947"


Never heard of that particular book book. It sounds like a winner,
though. Low production value?

--
Scott Lowther, Engineer
Remove the obvious (capitalized) anti-spam
gibberish from the reply-to e-mail address

  #29  
Old November 9th 03, 09:26 PM
Pat Flannery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Scott Lowther wrote:

It's in
the book book "Hitler's Siegswaffen, Band 2- Star Wars 1947"



Never heard of that particular book book. It sounds like a winner,
though. Low production value?




All you have to do is photocopy Wright-Patterson AFB's copy of "Rocket
Drive For Long-range Bombers" by Eugen Sanger and Irene Brendt, and send
it to the author- one Friedrich George (not his real name; his real name
is....A STATE SECRET!) and you too may receive free autographed copies
of all of his books. Which are very nicely printed and bound by the way,
and have lots of color pages; the only peculiarity being that the
writing on the spine is 180 degrees reversed from the way it is on
American books. (i.e. when sitting with the front cover title upright on
the bookshelf, the spine writing reads bottom-to-top.)
The reunited Germany is busy reinventing its past; they, not we, came up
with that Fat Man bomb...we stole it from them, as is plainly obvious
from the green letter "G" on it's tail fin assembly...a marking used
only by German aircraft!
.......Mein Fuhrer...I CAN VALK!

Pat

  #30  
Old November 9th 03, 09:41 PM
Scott Lowther
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Pat Flannery wrote:

into a separate booster for the missile (another German idea, for a
missile called "The Horse And Rider")


I've read about it in numerous places- generally in regard to the
postwar Soviet program; but have never been able to track down even a
sketch of the damned thing*- it was supposed to be an A4 with a ramjet
driven missile stuck on the side Navaho-style (or possibly on top-


I suspect you're thinking of this:
http://www.geocities.com/unicraftmodels/germ/v4/v4.htm

You can probably guess what I think the accuracy of this is.

--
Scott Lowther, Engineer
Remove the obvious (capitalized) anti-spam
gibberish from the reply-to e-mail address

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.