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JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 21st 09, 09:52 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Derek Lyons
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Posts: 2,999
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)

"Roger Conroy" wrote:

The Apollo program ended up being just a flash in the pan, nothing of any
serious consequence followed on from it.


It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
  #2  
Old January 21st 09, 10:26 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Roger Conroy[_2_]
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Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)


"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
"Roger Conroy" wrote:

The Apollo program ended up being just a flash in the pan, nothing of any
serious consequence followed on from it.


It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL


Derek
Are you seriously saying that the Apollo program was intended right from the
start to be nothing more than a really expensive ****ing contest? I find
that a bit hard to believe.

The only coherent part of Mr. O'Hara's outburst elswhere in this thread was
a reference to advances in civil rights - can someone educate me about that?
Please bear in mind that I am not American. I do not know many things that
you guys "take as read" so please take this request to be educated
seriously.
Another thing, I was born 4 years after he died so I have no personal memory
of/about him that older people (even outside the US) have from news reports
etc.

Thanks for your time
Roger


  #3  
Old January 21st 09, 10:37 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
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Posts: 8,311
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:26:47 +0200, in a place far, far away, "Roger
Conroy" made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:


"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
"Roger Conroy" wrote:

The Apollo program ended up being just a flash in the pan, nothing of any
serious consequence followed on from it.


It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL


Derek
Are you seriously saying that the Apollo program was intended right from the
start to be nothing more than a really expensive ****ing contest? I find
that a bit hard to believe.


No, it was also intended to help industrialize the south. But it had
nothing to do with an intent of expanding humanity into space, if
that's the delusion under which you labor. The primary goal was to
show that democracy was better at technology than totalitarianism.
With the landing on the moon in 1969, the goal was achieved.
  #4  
Old January 21st 09, 10:46 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Jack Linthicum
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Posts: 290
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies toeveryone....)

On Jan 21, 3:52*pm, (Derek Lyons) wrote:
"Roger Conroy" wrote:
The Apollo program ended up being just a flash in the pan, nothing of any
serious consequence followed on from it.


It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. *That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL


IIRC there were many programs which were intended to use the Saturn V
and its variants as the heavy booster, Space Shuttle being one, This
combination would have built the ISS in five launches.

Wiki

The (cancelled) second production run of Saturn Vs would very likely
have used the F-1A engine in its first stage, providing a substantial
performance boost Other likely changes would have been the removal of
the fins (which turned out to provide little benefit when compared to
their weight); a stretched S-IC first stage to support the more
powerful F-1As; and uprated J-2s for the upper stages.

A number of alternate Saturn vehicles were proposed based on the
Saturn V, ranging from the Saturn INT-20 with an S-IVB stage and
interstage mounted directly onto an S-IC stage, through to the Saturn
V-23(L) which would not only have five F-1 engines in the first stage,
but also four strap-on boosters with two F-1 engines each: giving a
total of thirteen F-1 engines firing at launch.

The Space Shuttle was initially conceived of as a cargo transport to
be used in concert with the Saturn V, even to the point that a "Saturn-
Shuttle," using the current orbiter and external tank, but with the
tank mounted on a modified, fly-back version of the S-IC, would be
used to power the Shuttle during the first two minutes of flight,
after which the S-IC would be jettisoned (which would then fly back to
KSC for refurbishment) and the Space Shuttle Main Engines would then
fire and place the orbiter into orbit. The Shuttle would handle space
station logistics, while Saturn V would launch components. Lack of a
second Saturn V production run killed this plan and has left the
United States without a heavy-lift booster. Some in the U.S. space
community have come to lament this situation, as continued production
would have allowed the International Space Station, using a Skylab or
Mir configuration with both U.S. and Russian docking ports, to have
been lifted with just a handful of launches, with the "Saturn Shuttle"
concept possibly eliminating the conditions that caused the Challenger
Disaster in 1986.

The Saturn V would have been the prime launch vehicle for the canceled
Voyager Mars probes, and was to have been the launch vehicle for the
nuclear rocket stage RIFT test program and the later NERVA.

and

http://www.friends-partners.org/part...s/satnv23l.htm
  #5  
Old January 21st 09, 11:36 PM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
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Posts: 8,311
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:46:22 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Jack Linthicum made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

On Jan 21, 3:52*pm, (Derek Lyons) wrote:
"Roger Conroy" wrote:
The Apollo program ended up being just a flash in the pan, nothing of any
serious consequence followed on from it.


It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. *That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL


IIRC there were many programs which were intended to use the Saturn V
and its variants as the heavy booster, Space Shuttle being one, This
combination would have built the ISS in five launches.


There were concepts to do so, but they were hardly "programs."
  #6  
Old January 22nd 09, 12:21 AM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Derek Lyons
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,999
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)

"Roger Conroy" wrote:


"Derek Lyons" wrote in message
...
"Roger Conroy" wrote:

The Apollo program ended up being just a flash in the pan, nothing of any
serious consequence followed on from it.


It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.


Derek
Are you seriously saying that the Apollo program was intended right from the
start to be nothing more than a really expensive ****ing contest? I find
that a bit hard to believe.


No, I'm not saying that. I'm stating facts.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
  #7  
Old January 22nd 09, 12:25 AM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Derek Lyons
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Posts: 2,999
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)

OM wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:52:38 GMT, (Derek Lyons)
wrote:

It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.


...Actually, I heard an interesting analogy a couple of years ago,
equating the race to the Moon with that of the Florida Marlin's
owner's one-season push for the World Series. Spent a ****load of cash
on a ****load of top players, got his pennant, then stripped his team
down for the next season.


Mind you, he didn't invent that strategy. He's just the most blatant
practictioner in modern baseball history.

Of course he was screwed because he missed the fact that the key step
in that strategy is no longer possible: selling the contracts of all
his key players for loads of cash.

The analogy actually fits the course of events that took place during
the Apollo program. Spend, achieve goal, strip it all down.


Just like many other cold war ****ing contests.

There's a master's thesis up for grabs - studying the sociological
history of the Apollo Program and how resistant some people have been
to the idea that it was anything but a cold war ****ing contest.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
  #9  
Old January 22nd 09, 01:52 AM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 237
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies toeveryone....)

On Jan 21, 3:52 pm, (Derek Lyons) wrote:

It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.


This reminds me that I have heard that JFK once said privately that he
really didn't care what happened to the program as long as he got re-
elected. Does anyone have a citation for that?

Yeah, this topic would make a great thesis topic. It would sit on
the shelf beside the one about the political and culture aspects of
the Shuttle and Buran differences and similarities.
  #10  
Old January 22nd 09, 02:04 AM posted to sci.military.naval,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
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Posts: 8,311
Default JFK's greatest achievements/Apollo (Was: Deep Apologies to everyone....)

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:52:26 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
" made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

On Jan 21, 3:52 pm, (Derek Lyons) wrote:

It was never intended to be anything but a flash in the pan - the
program lived up to Kennedy's promise. That it failed to live up to
the utterly unfounded and irrational goals attached to it ex post
facto by others is not Kennedy's fault.


This reminds me that I have heard that JFK once said privately that he
really didn't care what happened to the program as long as he got re-
elected. Does anyone have a citation for that?


That's not what he said. But he did say that he didn't give a damn
about space, per se.
 




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