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SpaceX Falcon Lost?



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 24th 06, 11:38 PM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default SpaceX Falcon Lost?

I couldn't get onto the streaming video.

At least it didn't take out the launch pad.

Wait, it doesn't have a launch pad!

http://cosmic.lifeform.org
  #2  
Old March 24th 06, 11:41 PM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default SpaceX Falcon Lost?

Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:
I couldn't get onto the streaming video.

At least it didn't take out the launch pad.

Wait, it doesn't have a launch pad!


Just confirmed, the vehicle was lost.

'Distinct rolling motion and loss of vehicle'

This sucks. Almost as bad as losing the Cryosat!

http://cosmic.lifeform.org

  #3  
Old March 24th 06, 11:45 PM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default SpaceX Falcon Lost?


Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:
Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:
I couldn't get onto the streaming video.

At least it didn't take out the launch pad.

Wait, it doesn't have a launch pad!


Just confirmed, the vehicle was lost.

'Distinct rolling motion and loss of vehicle'


Looked like an O.K. initial ascent from the pad,
but it did not get very far. I looked away for a
second, then looked back to see from the
downward looking onboard camera view that the
vehicle was rolling, then appeared to be turning
toward the horizon at fairly low altitude, then
someone turned off the video feed. RSO probably
cut off the engine. Didn't even make max-Q.

- Ed Kyle

  #4  
Old March 25th 06, 12:31 AM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default SpaceX Falcon Lost?


Ed Kyle wrote:
Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:
Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:
I couldn't get onto the streaming video.

At least it didn't take out the launch pad.

Wait, it doesn't have a launch pad!


Just confirmed, the vehicle was lost.

'Distinct rolling motion and loss of vehicle'


Looked like an O.K. initial ascent from the pad,
but it did not get very far. I looked away for a
second, then looked back to see from the
downward looking onboard camera view that the
vehicle was rolling, then appeared to be turning
toward the horizon at fairly low altitude, then
someone turned off the video feed. RSO probably
cut off the engine. Didn't even make max-Q.

- Ed Kyle


There's a lot of speculation out there. Apparently different viewers
saw different things. My feed slowed at liftoff--I saw it start to
clear the pad and the next frames I got were the onboard camera showing
the vehicle spinning, clearly at the wrong angle. Then my feed stopped.
Justin Ray of SpaceFlight Now says :
"A further look at the imagery seen from the onboard camera mounted to
the Falcon 1 shows a noticeable change in the color and shape of the
flame coming from the Merlin first stage main engine as the vehicle
seemed to roll. It was at that point the webcast provided to reporters
covering the launch immediately stopped. Repeated efforts to reconnect
to the feed were unsuccessful. "

To me that indicates a likely (another) engine failure...maybe all
those test burns were bad?

I wonder if they'll still be able to recover the first stage, or if the
whole thing just walloped into the ocean.

tom

  #5  
Old March 25th 06, 01:33 AM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default SpaceX Falcon Lost?


Tom Cuddihy wrote:
Ed Kyle wrote:
Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:
Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:
I couldn't get onto the streaming video.

At least it didn't take out the launch pad.

Wait, it doesn't have a launch pad!

Just confirmed, the vehicle was lost.

'Distinct rolling motion and loss of vehicle'


Looked like an O.K. initial ascent from the pad,
but it did not get very far. I looked away for a
second, then looked back to see from the
downward looking onboard camera view that the
vehicle was rolling, then appeared to be turning
toward the horizon at fairly low altitude, then
someone turned off the video feed. RSO probably
cut off the engine. Didn't even make max-Q.

- Ed Kyle


There's a lot of speculation out there. Apparently different viewers
saw different things. My feed slowed at liftoff--I saw it start to
clear the pad and the next frames I got were the onboard camera showing
the vehicle spinning, clearly at the wrong angle. Then my feed stopped.
Justin Ray of SpaceFlight Now says :
"A further look at the imagery seen from the onboard camera mounted to
the Falcon 1 shows a noticeable change in the color and shape of the
flame coming from the Merlin first stage main engine as the vehicle
seemed to roll. It was at that point the webcast provided to reporters
covering the launch immediately stopped. Repeated efforts to reconnect
to the feed were unsuccessful. "

To me that indicates a likely (another) engine failure...maybe all
those test burns were bad?

I wonder if they'll still be able to recover the first stage, or if the
whole thing just walloped into the ocean.

tom


I just download a replay of the launch video over at
"www.nasaspaceflight.com".
It shows that the rocket rose from its pad and ascended cleanly for
about 25 seconds before the vehicle's propulsion system either suffered

a failure or was commanded to shut down. The on-board camera view
then showed the vehicle rolling and falling toward the ocean - either
shallow water or a beach!

The view clearly showed that the first stage LOX insulation blanket
did not pull off of the stage as it should have at liftoff. The thing
was flapping around for awhile until it fell back toward the engine a
few seconds before something happened that clearly ended thrust
from the engine. Whether the blanket had anything to do with the
failure is clearly unknowable at this moment. The vehicle didn't
start to pitch and roll until after the engine was cut off.

Falcon 1 is equipped with an engine cut-off range safety system
rather than destruct charges. If the rocket was ascending off
course, the engine would have been commanded to shut down.
In that event, the rocket would have fallen, more or less intact,
not far from the launch site.

Man. Those 25 seconds were nice. That thing was really
flying!

- Ed Kyle

  #6  
Old March 25th 06, 02:22 AM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default SpaceX Falcon Lost?

Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:
I couldn't get onto the streaming video.

At least it didn't take out the launch pad.

Wait, it doesn't have a launch pad!

http://cosmic.lifeform.org


It will be interesting to hear what their version of
"how we will do better next time" will sound like.


--
Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++
  #7  
Old March 25th 06, 04:45 AM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default SpaceX Falcon Lost?

Sander Vesik wrote:
Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:
I couldn't get onto the streaming video.

At least it didn't take out the launch pad.

Wait, it doesn't have a launch pad!

http://cosmic.lifeform.org


It will be interesting to hear what their version of
"how we will do better next time" will sound like.


I'm more interested in hearing exactly what went wrong.

I'm very distrustful of an ablative combustion chamber.

But then again, maybe it was something trivial and simple.

I think the concept of a small TSTO all kerosene rocket has
merit, but I would have went with something a little bigger,
and a little more ambitious. The thought of scaling a nearly
marginal design up something like 42 times makes me wary.

I want clean cryogenic tanks, excess fuel and water, and
reusable and restartable cryogenic engines in high orbits,
so the whole concept of a TSTO kerosene rocket is useless to me.

Plus, if they can't launch from the cape, the Bahamas is closer.

http://cosmic.lifeform.org
  #8  
Old March 25th 06, 08:12 AM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default SpaceX Falcon Lost?


Ed Kyle wrote:


The view clearly showed that the first stage LOX insulation blanket
did not pull off of the stage as it should have at liftoff. The thing
was flapping around for awhile until it fell back toward the engine a
few seconds before something happened that clearly ended thrust
from the engine. Whether the blanket had anything to do with the
failure is clearly unknowable at this moment. The vehicle didn't
start to pitch and roll until after the engine was cut off.


- Ed Kyle


Hmm...I think I remember somebody (was it you Ed?) mentioning that the
sudden addition of a 'corrective' insulation blanket could cause more
problems than it solved...that at some point it's better to just launch
as designed than to tweak yourself out of success.

Anyway, we'll have to wait and see, but it sure sounds like somebody at
sci.space.policy was 'clairvoyant' on this one...

Tom

  #9  
Old March 25th 06, 08:19 AM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default SpaceX Falcon Lost?

jeesh, and I didn't even see this:
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/falcon...24failure.html

  #10  
Old March 25th 06, 09:59 AM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default SpaceX Falcon Lost?

On 24 Mar 2006 23:12:09 -0800, "Tom Cuddihy"
wrote:

Hmm...I think I remember somebody (was it you Ed?) mentioning that the
sudden addition of a 'corrective' insulation blanket could cause more
problems than it solved...that at some point it's better to just launch
as designed than to tweak yourself out of success.

Anyway, we'll have to wait and see, but it sure sounds like somebody at
sci.space.policy was 'clairvoyant' on this one...


I recall months ago when SpaceX mentioned adding an insulation blanket
to help minimise hydrogen loss that someone in here mention that it
was a bad idea to have it touch the rocket body. This was followed up
by someone else mentioning that they were most likely to use a tent
system to avoid direct contact. This they obviously did not use for
reasons known only to them.

From what I have been reading around then the most popular theory is
that the ground restraints failed to separate the insulation blanket
on launch. This blanket then caused the rocket to have difficulty in
maintaining the correct trajectory. The blanket soon began to break up
and where one large piece impacted the engine. This led to engine
failure and automatic shutdown, where since it was going up at a angle
anyway, then it soon fell back into the Ocean.

You could say that in the battle of Falcon 1 verses Velcro, then
Velcro won this time.

This is of course a nice theory, but we will have to wait for SpaceX
to provide their official, and possibly totally different, report.

The one thing we do know for sure is that this rocket should have gone
nearly straight up on launch and where the launch video clearly shows
a largely angled flight path.

Still, look on the bright side, when at least they managed to launch
it. This early loss is clearly unhelpful, but hopefully next time they
can go somewhat further. That being called progress in other words.

It is worth noting that SpaceX use the failure mode of engine shutdown
and a hard landing, instead of the usual explosive destruction. Their
next launch at Vandenberg may have issues with this, when Vandenberg
have already been voicing concern that this launch did not cure. So
this could well become an issue for their next launch in what should
have been around 5 months from now.

That is all I have managed to find out. I have not seen this launch
video myself yet, when I missed the launch and where the only site
hosting a copy takes ~24 hours to process my registration. So if
anyone knows of another source then please let me know.

Cardman
http://www.cardman.org
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk
 




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