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Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.



 
 
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  #61  
Old July 6th 17, 07:38 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,sci.electronics.design
Sегg io
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Posts: 6
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

On 7/6/2017 4:01 AM, Robert Clark wrote:
Robert Clark wrote:
An article from 2015:

3-D-printed car could hit streets next year. Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY
4:48 p.m. EST November 12, 2015
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...swim/75530830/





* GACK! A DC motor with commutator! How gross.
The working part of the engine should be exactly like the armature
in the Tesla car: design is same as armature in an AC shaded pole fan
motor.
That design would not be too difficult for a 3Dprinter.

---



Do you have any references for how the Tesla car electric motor
looks/works?

Bob Clark



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bg5mjPANck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMQjcukphpA

  #62  
Old July 6th 17, 08:21 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Robert Clark[_5_]
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Posts: 245
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 8:31:23 AM UTC-4, Robert Clark wrote:
An article from 2015:

3-D-printed car could hit streets next year. Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY
4:48
p.m. EST November 12, 2015
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...swim/75530830/

Several companies have come out with what they call "3D-printed" cars,
but
none have 3D-printed the most important part, the engine.

This would be difficult to do with an internal combustion engine, with
its
high temperatures, multiple moving parts, and high tolerances.


Difficult, but not impossible. NASA has done 3-d printing of rocket
combustion chambers.

But it shouldn't be too difficult with an electric engine. In fact
considering there are now miniature 3D-printers on the market for the
home,
an amateur could be the first to produce an entire, scale-size,
3D-printed
car.


Electric motor is MUCH more difficult. You must deal with close
tolerance of TWO very different materials. All of the wires
consist of a metallic core and a thin insulator sheath.


And then it could be scaled up to produce a full-size, working, fully
3D-printed automobile.

This would revolutionize the industry, obviously.

The two most difficult parts would be the engine and the transmission.

This video shows how you can make your own simple electric motor:

[]
Looking at the steps in the video, it appears they could all be
accomplished by 3D-printing.


not the wiring! (at lease not by the 3-d printers available today)

Sorry, but your dream will have to wait.

ed

---


Here's a video of showing the operation of a gas engine:

EXACTLY how a car engine works - 3D animation !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfTX88Sv4I8

It's complex in its construction and operation. It requires high
temperatures and high pressures. Moreover, the multiple pistons moving at
high speed within the cylinders require tight tolerances.

The DC electric engine I linked in the first post in this thread is
significantly simpler. Actually, the Tesla uses an AC electric motor, just a
little more complicated in its construction, but it has an advantage in not
needing permanent magnets.

Another advantage of the electric cars both using DC and AC motors is that
they don't need a multi-gear transmissions. This is also a significant
simplification.

Here's a video describing the electric motor of the Tesla and its single
speed transmission:

How does an Electric Car work ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SAxXUIre28

About the copper wire winding, ideally, you would want the entire car to be
3D-printed, but you could have most of the electric motor be 3D printed and
the copper wire windings placed separately.

For the "binder jetting method" of metal 3D-printing, most similar to the
method amateurs use for plastic 3D-printing, it would be difficult to create
also the wire windings at the same time as the electric motor. The reason is
it requires an additional step of heating at high temperature and the wire
insulation would melt. Perhaps there could be used high temperature ceramic
coating for the wires.

Other methods for 3D-metal printing such as electron beam and laser
deposition do not require this extra step of furnace heating so should be
able to do the copper wire winding, assuming the 3D-printer has the
capability of rapidly switching out the material being deposited between
metal and plastic as needed, or perhaps using separate print heads for each
material.

For instance, if you imagine a horizontal slice through the electric motor.
You would have wire insulation, then the copper wire, then insulation, then
copper wire, and this pattern would be repeated, then you would have the
core, then the insulation, copper pattern repeated again. A 3D-printing
method that could rapidly switch between depositing metal and plastic
insulation material should be able to do this.


Bob Clark


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize
21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital
launchers, to 'flying cars'.
This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it:

Nanotech: from air to space.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

  #63  
Old July 6th 17, 09:14 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.space.policy,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 10,018
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

"Robert Clark" wrote:

On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 8:31:23 AM UTC-4, Robert Clark wrote:
An article from 2015:

3-D-printed car could hit streets next year. Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY
4:48
p.m. EST November 12, 2015
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...swim/75530830/

Several companies have come out with what they call "3D-printed" cars,
but
none have 3D-printed the most important part, the engine.

This would be difficult to do with an internal combustion engine, with
its
high temperatures, multiple moving parts, and high tolerances.


Difficult, but not impossible. NASA has done 3-d printing of rocket
combustion chambers.


Cite? I don't believe that's true.


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
  #64  
Old July 7th 17, 02:19 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
[email protected]
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Posts: 47
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 23:30:45 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

wrote:

On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 19:12:48 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

wrote:

On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 11:08:21 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

wrote:

In sci.physics John Larkin wrote:

There is one very successful additive manufacturing process: casting.


Because it is fast and cheap.


Good, fast, cheap - choose any two. It's obvious where the Chimp
lives...


Are you saying that castings are not good?


I'm saying what I said.


I was trying to help you make some sense of your nonsense but I guess
there wasn't any to make.


I'm sorry you're stupid and have never designed anything in the real
world, but I can't fix you.


So's your old man. (what a loser!)
  #66  
Old July 7th 17, 02:25 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
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Posts: 47
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 16:34:29 -0000, wrote:

In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:

Does anyone care about a shape optimized 4 slice toaster or filing cabinet?

Yes. I do.

If any significant number of items in your house are fabricated, it makes sense
to use as few raw materials as possible, so, for example, it would make sense to
honeycomb the inside of a knife handle, since it would still be strong enough,
and would allow you to keep a gram or two of material "in the pot" for other
projects.

Ditto everything you make.

Nonsense; the items in one's house are based on price not how elegantly
it was produced.

It makes no sense to honeycomb the inside of a knife handle as it would
add no functionality and just increase the price.


What price?


The manufacturing cost which increases the retail sales price at the store.


Manufacturing cost and sales price are only loosely correlated.

It would reduce both the time to fabricate and feedstock used, albeit at the
cost of slightly more complex software.


Or you could injection mold it, as most knife handles are, for a fraction
of the manufacturing cost of the honyecomb nonsense.

Or you could stamp the whole thing out of metal for a fraction of the cost
of the honyecomb nonsense.

They form the only metric which makes sense when talking about fabricating objects.


The only metric which makes sense for fabricating objects is the loaded
manufacturing cost.


Yes but not because of sales price, rather profit.

So, by that metric, they're cheaper.


If an injection molded handle costs a fraction of a cent while the honeycomb
handle costs several cents, which is cheaper?


Not the one with the better ad agency. ;-)
  #67  
Old July 7th 17, 02:32 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
[email protected]
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Posts: 47
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 19:28:43 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

wrote:

On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 11:11:31 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

wrote:

In sci.physics Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...
Landing gear, and all other structural moving parts, is surely another
area on aircraft which could use this technology. Landing gear make up
a significant percentage of an aircraft's total dry mass, so this would
be a likely candidate for shape optimization and 3D printing.

Again, you are talking about niche applications and landing gear are not
that big a part of an aircrafts weight.

From Wikipedia (because I don't have time to look up a "better" source):

The undercarriage is typically 4-5% of the takeoff mass and can
even reach 7%.

That's significant in aerospace.

Have you ever looked at the interior structures of an aircraft?

Yes, many times. I've got a b.s. in aerospace engineering, so I know
the basics. Many of our customers are aerospace, so I have to
understand the domain.

3D printing is, and always will be, a niche manufacturing method.

Handy at times, but certainly not a world changer.

This is quite short sighted. I'm sure the same was said about
composites when they were in their infancy. Today it would be quite
hard (i.e. likely impossible) to point to something commercial that
flies and carries people commercially that has absolutely zero composite
content.

An irrelevant red herring to the subject of 3D printing. There are a HUGE
number of different composite materials out there and it has taken well
over half a century for most aircraft to have even a small fraction of
composite materials in their construction.

Note the word "most".

How is an example of the adoption of new materials/manufacturing
processes not applicable to 3D printing which is another example of the
same thing? Are you deliberately being intellectually dishonest?

Well, if you want to compare composite materials and 3D printing, composite
materials have been around for over a half century and the usage is still
trivial compared to traditional materials in just about all products other
than camper shells and ski boats.


Jesus, get back to your trailer park until you gain some experience in
the real world.


Precisely what do you disagree with in the sentence?

"composite materials have been around for over a half century and
the usage is still trivial compared to traditional materials"


I disagree that you have included his entire thought. Given his
sphere of knowledge of the use of composites, which he calls out as
"camper shells and ski boats", he's obviously trailer trash.


So, because camper shells and ski boats are made out of composites,
he's trailer trash. Got it.

Composites are widely used all over the place. Many of them the Chimp
probably thinks of as 'traditional materials'. Both concrete and
mortar are composite materials and we've been using that stuff since
the Romans. Composites of various types are used all over the place,
from piping to appliances to aircraft to construction materials.


Oh, good grief. I suppose you're going to tell me that a concrete
pump is a 3-D printer, too.

So we can expect 3D printers to still be niche in 50 years.


Well, YOU can no doubt expect that, but you're pretty well known for
having your head up and locked.


Seems like someone insulted your binkie.


Every time we see the Chimp around here he is arguing a stupid
position adamantly. Perhaps you and he should get a room?


You should look in a mirror, kid.
  #68  
Old July 7th 17, 02:36 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
[email protected]
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Posts: 47
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 05:06:49 -0000, wrote:

In sci.physics
wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 01:22:40 -0000,
wrote:

In sci.physics
wrote:
On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 18:12:47 -0000,
wrote:

In sci.physics Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,

says...
Also, the other option that 3D printing opens up is more shape optimized
parts. These things are optimized so that "useless" mass is simply gone
from the design. They tend to look "organic" rather than "machined" due
to their complex shapes. I've heard this called "light-weighting" parts
from management types.

And about the only place where weight matters that much is in things
that fly and in that case useless mass is already gone from the design
without the expense of 3D printing.

True, the big dumb cylindrical pressure vessel may not apply but, that's
not the entire aircraft.

If the "mass were already gone from the design" then GE would not be
pouring literally millions of dollars into developing a one meter cubed
3D printer presumably for printing aircraft engine parts.

Landing gear, and all other structural moving parts, is surely another
area on aircraft which could use this technology. Landing gear make up
a significant percentage of an aircraft's total dry mass, so this would
be a likely candidate for shape optimization and 3D printing.

Again, you are talking about niche applications and landing gear are not
that big a part of an aircrafts weight.

Have you ever looked at the interior structures of an aircraft?

Yes, many times. I've got a b.s. in aerospace engineering, so I know
the basics. Many of our customers are aerospace, so I have to
understand the domain.

3D printing is, and always will be, a niche manufacturing method.

Handy at times, but certainly not a world changer.

This is quite short sighted. I'm sure the same was said about
composites when they were in their infancy. Today it would be quite
hard (i.e. likely impossible) to point to something commercial that
flies and carries people commercially that has absolutely zero composite
content.

An irrelevant red herring to the subject of 3D printing. There are a HUGE
number of different composite materials out there and it has taken well
over half a century for most aircraft to have even a small fraction of
composite materials in their construction.

Note the word "most".

I can say that shape optimization coupled with 3D printing is one of the
"bleeding edge" topics in my industry. It's really no secret, you can
surely Google hundreds of articles on the topic. I really can't go into
further details, but my profession is in writing engineering software,
so I ought to know.

Whoopee. It is still niche.

Does anyone care about a shape optimized 4 slice toaster or filing cabinet?

Marketing types certainly do. Consumers have always bought toasters
based on their looks. After all, the thousands of different designs
all do the same thing.

And all look about the same.


Not so much:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/437412182539227477/


For any given era they look pretty much the same to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=toas...w=1327&bih=868


You'd argue that every color is the same? The fact is that marketing
differentiates their product from the competition by making stuff
*look* different. Similar, sure, but that's the way fashion goes. A
few years ago every car looked pretty much the same but that's not the
same "same" as it is now.
  #69  
Old July 7th 17, 03:38 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,018
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

wrote:

On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 19:28:43 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

wrote:

On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 11:11:31 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

wrote:

In sci.physics Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,

says...
Landing gear, and all other structural moving parts, is surely another
area on aircraft which could use this technology. Landing gear make up
a significant percentage of an aircraft's total dry mass, so this would
be a likely candidate for shape optimization and 3D printing.

Again, you are talking about niche applications and landing gear are not
that big a part of an aircrafts weight.

From Wikipedia (because I don't have time to look up a "better" source):

The undercarriage is typically 4-5% of the takeoff mass and can
even reach 7%.

That's significant in aerospace.

Have you ever looked at the interior structures of an aircraft?

Yes, many times. I've got a b.s. in aerospace engineering, so I know
the basics. Many of our customers are aerospace, so I have to
understand the domain.

3D printing is, and always will be, a niche manufacturing method.

Handy at times, but certainly not a world changer.

This is quite short sighted. I'm sure the same was said about
composites when they were in their infancy. Today it would be quite
hard (i.e. likely impossible) to point to something commercial that
flies and carries people commercially that has absolutely zero composite
content.

An irrelevant red herring to the subject of 3D printing. There are a HUGE
number of different composite materials out there and it has taken well
over half a century for most aircraft to have even a small fraction of
composite materials in their construction.

Note the word "most".

How is an example of the adoption of new materials/manufacturing
processes not applicable to 3D printing which is another example of the
same thing? Are you deliberately being intellectually dishonest?

Well, if you want to compare composite materials and 3D printing, composite
materials have been around for over a half century and the usage is still
trivial compared to traditional materials in just about all products other
than camper shells and ski boats.


Jesus, get back to your trailer park until you gain some experience in
the real world.

Precisely what do you disagree with in the sentence?

"composite materials have been around for over a half century and
the usage is still trivial compared to traditional materials"


I disagree that you have included his entire thought. Given his
sphere of knowledge of the use of composites, which he calls out as
"camper shells and ski boats", he's obviously trailer trash.


So, because camper shells and ski boats are made out of composites,
he's trailer trash. Got it.


Wow, you're just remarkably stupid. Because those are the only things
he can find that are made out of composites he's trailer trash.


Composites are widely used all over the place. Many of them the Chimp
probably thinks of as 'traditional materials'. Both concrete and
mortar are composite materials and we've been using that stuff since
the Romans. Composites of various types are used all over the place,
from piping to appliances to aircraft to construction materials.


Oh, good grief. I suppose you're going to tell me that a concrete
pump is a 3-D printer, too.


So are you disagreeing that concrete is a composite? Why do you think
there is a connection between 'composite' and '3-D printer'? If you
don't, were you just compelled to say something stupid?

So we can expect 3D printers to still be niche in 50 years.


Well, YOU can no doubt expect that, but you're pretty well known for
having your head up and locked.

Seems like someone insulted your binkie.


Every time we see the Chimp around here he is arguing a stupid
position adamantly. Perhaps you and he should get a room?


You should look in a mirror, kid.


You should pull your head out of your ass, old and moldering one.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #70  
Old July 7th 17, 05:56 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.physics,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.electronics.design
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,346
Default Towards the *fully* 3D-printed electric cars.

In sci.physics wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 16:34:29 -0000,
wrote:

In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:
In sci.physics David Mitchell wrote:
wrote:

Does anyone care about a shape optimized 4 slice toaster or filing cabinet?

Yes. I do.

If any significant number of items in your house are fabricated, it makes sense
to use as few raw materials as possible, so, for example, it would make sense to
honeycomb the inside of a knife handle, since it would still be strong enough,
and would allow you to keep a gram or two of material "in the pot" for other
projects.

Ditto everything you make.

Nonsense; the items in one's house are based on price not how elegantly
it was produced.

It makes no sense to honeycomb the inside of a knife handle as it would
add no functionality and just increase the price.


What price?


The manufacturing cost which increases the retail sales price at the store.


Manufacturing cost and sales price are only loosely correlated.


For government projects mainly but not for consumer products.

It would reduce both the time to fabricate and feedstock used, albeit at the
cost of slightly more complex software.


Or you could injection mold it, as most knife handles are, for a fraction
of the manufacturing cost of the honyecomb nonsense.

Or you could stamp the whole thing out of metal for a fraction of the cost
of the honyecomb nonsense.

They form the only metric which makes sense when talking about fabricating objects.


The only metric which makes sense for fabricating objects is the loaded
manufacturing cost.


Yes but not because of sales price, rather profit.


profit = sales price - loaded manufacturing cost

So, by that metric, they're cheaper.


If an injection molded handle costs a fraction of a cent while the honeycomb
handle costs several cents, which is cheaper?


Not the one with the better ad agency. ;-)



--
Jim Pennino
 




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