Fictional Apollo 18(+) Missions

(Henry Spencer) wrote:
In article , Matt Wiser wrote:
You know where they should have sent a crew? The crater Alphonsus...
It was short-listed for both 16 and 17, but didn't make the final cut...

What was the reason for Alphonsus not making the cut for either 16 or 17?

It was close enough to Mare Imbrium to have a fair chance that its
original pre-Imbrium surface had been contaminated by Imbrium ejecta.
There was a strong desire for ancient samples, as ancient as possible.

By the time of site selection for 17, people understood that ancient
samples were not easy to come by anywhere, but going far away from Imbrium
still seemed likely to improve the odds. Also, another complication
intervened: Apollo 15 had observed and photographed what everyone thought
were young volcanic features in Taurus-Littrow. (Volcanic they are, but
young they aren't -- because the glass-rich ejecta deposits are
mechanically weak, they don't preserve craters as well as hard rock does,
so they look less cratered than they are.)
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |
Since the sites considered for 17 have been mentioned, what about 16? They
went to Descartes, and Alphonsus was on the short list for both 16 and 17,
where else? Schroter's Valley was a candidate for 18 or 19, as (and I may
be wrong on this) TLP have been sighted there and the scientists wanted to
see if there was active volcanic activity...
Somewhere Copernicus was mentioned as a possible site for 20 before it was
axed, did it come up for 16 or 17 after the ax of 18 and 19?


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Tycho was mentioned too, but never flew for obvious safety reasons...
..
..
End the dangerous wasteful shuttle now before it kills any more astronauts....

In article , Matt Wiser wrote:
Since the sites considered for 17 have been mentioned, what about 16? They
went to Descartes, and Alphonsus was on the short list for both 16 and 17,
where else?

The short list was Descartes, Alphonsus, Copernicus, and Kant Plateau.
Marius Hills was a late discard, dropped when the decision to concentrate
on highland sites was made firm.

Alphonsus was rejected as probably contaminated by Imbrium ejecta.

Copernicus was particularly notable because its central peak probably
contains ancient highland material from down below. However, Apollo 12
had provided a tentative date for Copernicus, it was close to several
previous landing sites and thus didn't provide geographical diversity or
long baselines for the surface experiments, and what were thought to be
post-impact volcanic features were then thought well-understood.

Kant Plateau, east of Descartes, shared many of Descartes's virtues and
had better photographic coverage, and some thought it offered hope of
primitive highland material. But majority opinion was that any primitive
material there probably had random impact debris on top, and Descartes
seemed to offer a clearer geological context (ironically, debris problems
turned out to be very serious at Descartes...). And there was a strong,
but incorrect, belief that major features at Descartes were volcanic.

Schroter's Valley was a candidate for 18 or 19, as (and I may
be wrong on this) TLP have been sighted there and the scientists wanted to
see if there was active volcanic activity...

The Aristarchus / Cobra Head / Schroeter's Valley area attracted mission
planners early on -- lots of strange features, persistent reports of
transient events -- but even after later capability improvements, it was
really outside the area Apollo could reach.
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |

In message , bob haller
writes
Tycho was mentioned too, but never flew for obvious safety reasons...

"A day late and a dollar short". We've been through this.

(Henry Spencer) wrote:
In article , Matt Wiser wrote:
Since the sites considered for 17 have been mentioned, what about 16? They
went to Descartes, and Alphonsus was on the short list for both 16 and
17,
where else?

The short list was Descartes, Alphonsus, Copernicus, and Kant Plateau.
Marius Hills was a late discard, dropped when the decision to concentrate
on highland sites was made firm.

Alphonsus was rejected as probably contaminated by Imbrium ejecta.

Copernicus was particularly notable because its central peak probably
contains ancient highland material from down below. However, Apollo 12
had provided a tentative date for Copernicus, it was close to several
previous landing sites and thus didn't provide geographical diversity or
long baselines for the surface experiments, and what were thought to be
post-impact volcanic features were then thought well-understood.

Kant Plateau, east of Descartes, shared many of Descartes's virtues and
had better photographic coverage, and some thought it offered hope of
primitive highland material. But majority opinion was that any primitive
material there probably had random impact debris on top, and Descartes
seemed to offer a clearer geological context (ironically, debris problems
turned out to be very serious at Descartes...). And there was a strong,
but incorrect, belief that major features at Descartes were volcanic.

Schroter's Valley was a candidate for 18 or 19, as (and I may
be wrong on this) TLP have been sighted there and the scientists wanted
to
see if there was active volcanic activity...

The Aristarchus / Cobra Head / Schroeter's Valley area attracted mission
planners early on -- lots of strange features, persistent reports of
transient events -- but even after later capability improvements, it was
really outside the area Apollo could reach.
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |
Thanks for the info on 17 and 16. FETM mentioned Marius Hills and Hadley
Appenine as sites for 15, with Hadley winning out, were there any others
considered? And where was 14 supposed to go originally if 13 hadn't had the...difficulties
Lovell and his crew experienced?


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In article , Matt Wiser wrote:
...FETM mentioned Marius Hills and Hadley
Appenine as sites for 15, with Hadley winning out, were there any others
considered?

Pre-13, when 15 was still an H-series (non-rover) mission, it was penciled
in for Davy -- a crater chain, thought volcanic, thought to have brought
up deep interior material. Early crew training emphasized possible Davy
equivalents on Earth.

Then Apollo lost two missions, and the original H-series 15 was one of the
ones killed. Now 15 was a J mission and probably had a rover (there was
some small question whether the rover would be ready in time for 15), and
moreover it was one of only three remaining landings. J missions could do
a proper job on more complex sites, they could land at somewhat higher
latitudes, they had a more flexible descent path that could clear higher
uprange obstacles... and Davy wasn't good enough to be worth 1/3 of what
was left of Apollo.

Descartes would have been a candidate but better landing-planning photos
were needed before putting a landing there; 13 hadn't had a chance to do
it and 14 would be a bit late.

People had been eying the western foot of the Apennines -- part of the
Imbrium basin rim -- as a place where deep rocks might be exposed, plus it
offered Hadley Rille -- the origin of the rilles still being rather a
mystery -- and some mare surface as well. It had originally been seen as
hard to reach because of the need to clear the Apennines, but the J-series
improvements made it accessible. And the northern position would complete
a triangle of surface-instrument sites, and the inclined orbit would carry
the CSM over areas not yet seen. So Hadley-Apennine was on the shortlist.

The Marius Hills area was the only other major candidate. Thought to be
volcanic, thought likely to be a deep volcanic system, and it has its own
rilles.

Many geologists thought more highly of Hadley, but overall it was pretty
much a tie, and Dave Scott broke it in favor of Hadley.

And where was 14 supposed to go originally if 13 hadn't had
the...difficulties Lovell and his crew experienced?

14 had been tentatively assigned Littrow -- a site somewhat to the west of
the Apollo 17 site -- with Rima Bode II being the other short-list site.
The objective for either one was to investigate a dark layer interpreted
as a pyroclastic deposit from late volcanic activity.

After 13's failure, dating of the Imbrium impact (i.e., Fra Mauro) was
still a high science priority. Moreover, post-13 program cutbacks meant
that 14 was going to be the last H mission. Fra Mauro was unusual in
being a site that would *not* benefit much from greater surface mobility,
meaning that it was not a good choice for a J mission but was a good fit
for the last H. The icing on the cake was that a Fra Mauro mission could
get landing-planning photos of Descartes -- already being eyed for one of
the J missions -- and a Littrow mission couldn't.

(Source for most of this, by the way, is Don Wilhelms's "To a Rocky Moon",
an excellent book.)
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |

Henry Spencer wrote:
In article , Matt Wiser wrote:
...FETM mentioned Marius Hills and Hadley
Appenine as sites for 15, with Hadley winning out, were there any others
considered?

Pre-13, when 15 was still an H-series (non-rover) mission, it was penciled
in for Davy -- a crater chain, thought volcanic, thought to have brought
up deep interior material. Early crew training emphasized possible Davy
equivalents on Earth.

....snip...

People had been eying the western foot of the Apennines -- part of the
Imbrium basin rim -- as a place where deep rocks might be exposed, plus it
offered Hadley Rille -- the origin of the rilles still being rather a
mystery -- and some mare surface as well. It had originally been seen as
hard to reach because of the need to clear the Apennines, but the J-series
improvements made it accessible. And the northern position would complete
a triangle of surface-instrument sites, and the inclined orbit would carry
the CSM over areas not yet seen. So Hadley-Apennine was on the shortlist.

The Marius Hills area was the only other major candidate. Thought to be
volcanic, thought likely to be a deep volcanic system, and it has its own
rilles.

This bit of history has me somewhat reassured about site selection.
The bits and pieces I'd run into suggested a bizarre fixation
with recent vulcanism to the detriment of other issues (like
dating major events and understanding impacts in the lunar
context), so it's good to have that set straight. Gotta put
Wilhelms on the holiday reading list...

Bill Keel

In article ,
William C. Keel wrote:
This bit of history has me somewhat reassured about site selection.
The bits and pieces I'd run into suggested a bizarre fixation
with recent vulcanism to the detriment of other issues...

Well, in hindsight there *was* an excessive fixation on recent vulcanism,
partly because volcanic theories of lunar features were still fighting a
rear-guard action against the rise of impact theories. It really took the
Apollo results to hammer home the lesson that the lunar surface was
overwhelmingly shaped by impacts and their immediate side effects, with
independent vulcanism taking only quite a minor and early role.
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |

(Henry Spencer) wrote:
In article , Matt Wiser wrote:
...FETM mentioned Marius Hills and Hadley
Appenine as sites for 15, with Hadley winning out, were there any others
considered?

Pre-13, when 15 was still an H-series (non-rover) mission, it was penciled
in for Davy -- a crater chain, thought volcanic, thought to have brought
up deep interior material. Early crew training emphasized possible Davy
equivalents on Earth.

Then Apollo lost two missions, and the original H-series 15 was one of the
ones killed. Now 15 was a J mission and probably had a rover (there was
some small question whether the rover would be ready in time for 15), and
moreover it was one of only three remaining landings. J missions could
do
a proper job on more complex sites, they could land at somewhat higher
latitudes, they had a more flexible descent path that could clear higher

uprange obstacles... and Davy wasn't good enough to be worth 1/3 of what

was left of Apollo.

Descartes would have been a candidate but better landing-planning photos
were needed before putting a landing there; 13 hadn't had a chance to do
it and 14 would be a bit late.

People had been eying the western foot of the Apennines -- part of the
Imbrium basin rim -- as a place where deep rocks might be exposed, plus
it
offered Hadley Rille -- the origin of the rilles still being rather a
mystery -- and some mare surface as well. It had originally been seen as
hard to reach because of the need to clear the Apennines, but the J-series
improvements made it accessible. And the northern position would complete
a triangle of surface-instrument sites, and the inclined orbit would carry
the CSM over areas not yet seen. So Hadley-Apennine was on the shortlist.


The Marius Hills area was the only other major candidate. Thought to be
volcanic, thought likely to be a deep volcanic system, and it has its own
rilles.

Many geologists thought more highly of Hadley, but overall it was pretty
much a tie, and Dave Scott broke it in favor of Hadley.

And where was 14 supposed to go originally if 13 hadn't had
the...difficulties Lovell and his crew experienced?

14 had been tentatively assigned Littrow -- a site somewhat to the west
of
the Apollo 17 site -- with Rima Bode II being the other short-list site.

The objective for either one was to investigate a dark layer interpreted
as a pyroclastic deposit from late volcanic activity.

After 13's failure, dating of the Imbrium impact (i.e., Fra Mauro) was
still a high science priority. Moreover, post-13 program cutbacks meant
that 14 was going to be the last H mission. Fra Mauro was unusual in
being a site that would *not* benefit much from greater surface mobility,
meaning that it was not a good choice for a J mission but was a good fit
for the last H. The icing on the cake was that a Fra Mauro mission could
get landing-planning photos of Descartes -- already being eyed for one of
the J missions -- and a Littrow mission couldn't.

(Source for most of this, by the way, is Don Wilhelms's "To a Rocky Moon",
an excellent book.)
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |
Thanks for the information and the source: looks like I'll be trying to find
the book in either my county library or my old college library...


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