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What if Wernher Von Braun Given First Try To Launch First Satellite?
Suppose if the task was not given to the U.S. navy to launch the first
satellite with the Vanguard program but to Wernher Von Braun with his Explorer program? The result is pretty obvious. The U.S. would have beat the Russians. Explorer would have gone up before Sputnik. A more interesting question is why the U.S. chose the Vanguard program? After all the Army Redstone program was more ahead. In fact Vanguard failed several times while Explorer was sucessful in its first try. I have the theory that they did not want to give Von Braun the credit because of his V2 program which attacked London and also the mistreatment of the slave workers who worked on Nazi Germany's rocket program. What is your opinion of this? Is there any evidence of this in documents from that time? |
#2
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What if Wernher Von Braun Given First Try To Launch First Satellite?
At the time it seemed that Washington didn't want our space program
connected to the military booster but desired a new design specifically designed as a satellite launcher by NASA and Navy. But Vanguard was such an embarassment they fianlly had to let von Braun do the job with the redstone. Ike had some funny ideas about a space race once started would be bad for business and the stock market (taxes would have invreased to fund it), so I doubt we would have gone first. Remember ot was one of Ike's appointees that coined the phrase "what's good for General Motors is good for the nation." Johnson was pushing NASA as a non-military organization at the time also. It was a frustrating time. They'd break in on TV programing to show live coverage of a Vanguard, then after a while it would either be postponed or blow up on the pad. I remember one where it seemed all the stages lit off at once. I don't remember a lot of discussions about von Braun's past - this was the 50s - the nuclear menace - duck and cover drills in the schools, air raid drills, home bomb shelters - we we're concentrating on the Rusians. It was also the time of "The Ugly American" and the US and Russia trying to win over the rest of the world - the better system, capitalism or communism, would be judged on the accomplishments of things like the space race. There was also a perceived "Bomber Gap" along with a military "Missile Gap" which again can be traced to tight purse string thinking, and helped Kennedy win in 1960. "heich1" wrote in message ... Suppose if the task was not given to the U.S. navy to launch the first satellite with the Vanguard program but to Wernher Von Braun with his Explorer program? The result is pretty obvious. The U.S. would have beat the Russians. Explorer would have gone up before Sputnik. A more interesting question is why the U.S. chose the Vanguard program? After all the Army Redstone program was more ahead. In fact Vanguard failed several times while Explorer was sucessful in its first try. I have the theory that they did not want to give Von Braun the credit because of his V2 program which attacked London and also the mistreatment of the slave workers who worked on Nazi Germany's rocket program. What is your opinion of this? Is there any evidence of this in documents from that time? |
#3
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What if Wernher Von Braun Given First Try To Launch First Satellite?
heich1 wrote:
A more interesting question is why the U.S. chose the Vanguard program? After all the Army Redstone program was more ahead. Before proposing an ATL, it pays to actually do basic research on OTL. As Val Kraut briefly mentions, Ike did not want the space race to be seen as a military race. I have the theory that they did not want to give Von Braun the credit because of his V2 program which attacked London and also the mistreatment of the slave workers who worked on Nazi Germany's rocket program. What is your opinion of this? It's so much fertilizer. Is there any evidence of this in documents from that time? Of your theory? Precisely none. Of that outlined by Val Kraut and myself? Abundant. D. -- Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/ -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
#4
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What if Wernher Von Braun Given First Try To Launch First Satellite?
Val Kraut, 13:04, marted́ 1 maggio 2012:
At the time it seemed that Washington didn't want our space program connected to the military booster but desired a new design specifically designed as a satellite launcher by NASA and Navy. But Vanguard was such an embarassment they fianlly had to let von Braun do the job with the redstone. Ike had some funny ideas about a space race once started would be bad for business and the stock market (taxes would have invreased to fund it), so I doubt we would have gone first. Remember ot was one of Ike's appointees that coined the phrase "what's good for General Motors is good for the nation." Johnson was pushing NASA as a non-military organization at the time also. It was a frustrating time. They'd break in on TV programing to show live coverage of a Vanguard, then after a while it would either be postponed or blow up on the pad. I remember one where it seemed all the stages lit off at once. I don't remember a lot of discussions about von Braun's past - this was the 50s - the nuclear menace - duck and cover drills in the schools, air raid drills, home bomb shelters - we we're concentrating on the Rusians. It was also the time of "The Ugly American" and the US and Russia trying to win over the rest of the world - the better system, capitalism or communism, would be judged on the accomplishments of things like the space race. There was also a perceived "Bomber Gap" along with a military "Missile Gap" which again can be traced to tight purse string thinking, and helped Kennedy win in 1960. "There is just one thing I can promise you about the outer-space program - your tax-dollar will go further." -- Wernher von Braun "heich1" wrote in message ... Suppose if the task was not given to the U.S. navy to launch the first satellite with the Vanguard program but to Wernher Von Braun with his Explorer program? The result is pretty obvious. The U.S. would have beat the Russians. Explorer would have gone up before Sputnik. A more interesting question is why the U.S. chose the Vanguard program? After all the Army Redstone program was more ahead. In fact Vanguard failed several times while Explorer was sucessful in its first try. I have the theory that they did not want to give Von Braun the credit because of his V2 program which attacked London and also the mistreatment of the slave workers who worked on Nazi Germany's rocket program. What is your opinion of this? Is there any evidence of this in documents from that time? -- o o |
#5
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What if Wernher Von Braun Given First Try To Launch First Satellite?
In sci.space.history Val Kraut wrote:
At the time it seemed that Washington didn't want our space program connected to the military booster but desired a new design specifically designed as a satellite launcher by NASA and Navy. But Vanguard was such an embarassment they fianlly had to let von Braun do the job with the redstone. Ike had some funny ideas about a space race once started would be bad for business and the stock market (taxes would have invreased to fund it), so I doubt we would have gone first. Wasn't there also something about wanting the Russians to go first to set the "It is OK to overfly with a satellite" precedent? rick jones -- a wide gulf separates "what if" from "if only" these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH... |
#6
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What if Wernher Von Braun Given First Try To Launch First Satellite?
On May 1, 7:04*am, "Val Kraut" wrote:
At the time it seemed that Washington didn't want our space program connected to the military booster but desired a new design specifically designed as a satellite launcher by NASA and Navy. But Vanguard was such an embarassment they fianlly had to let von Braun do the job with the redstone. Ike had some funny ideas about a space race once started would be bad for business and the stock market (taxes would have invreased to fund it), so I doubt we would have gone first. Remember ot was one of Ike's appointees that coined the phrase "what's good for General Motors is good for the nation." Johnson was pushing NASA as a non-military organization at the time also. It was a frustrating time. They'd break in on TV programing to show live coverage of a Vanguard, then after a while it would either be postponed or blow up on the pad. I remember one where it seemed all the stages lit off at once. I don't remember a lot of discussions about von Braun's past - this was the 50s - the nuclear menace - duck and cover drills in the schools, air raid drills, home bomb shelters - we we're concentrating on the Rusians. It was also the time of "The Ugly American" and the US and Russia trying to win over the rest of the world - the better system, capitalism or communism, would be judged on the accomplishments of things like the space race. There was also a perceived "Bomber Gap" along with a military "Missile Gap" which again can be traced to tight purse string thinking, and helped Kennedy win in 1960. "heich1" wrote in message ... Suppose if the task was not given to the U.S. navy to launch the first satellite with the Vanguard program but to Wernher Von Braun with his Explorer program? The result is pretty obvious. The U.S. would have beat the Russians. Explorer would have gone up before Sputnik. A more interesting question is why the U.S. chose the Vanguard program? After all the Army Redstone program was more ahead. In fact Vanguard failed several times while Explorer was sucessful in its first try. I have the theory that they did not want to give Von Braun the credit because of his V2 program which attacked London and also the mistreatment of the slave workers who worked on Nazi Germany's rocket program. What is your opinion of this? Is there any evidence of this in documents from that time? I am aware of your reasons as they are the offical reasons why they failed to give Von Braun the initial go ahead. While the American people were not fully aware of Von Braun's past surely Eisenhower and his administration were. Maybe they did not want to give their true reasons publically and even did not tell their subordinates. If they did it might leak out and Von Braun could not be used even for military research. After all Eisenhower was the commander of Allied forces in World War 2. I realize what I am writing is speculation. |
#7
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What if Wernher Von Braun Given First Try To Launch First Satellite?
On Monday 30 April 2012 21:55, heich1 ) opined:
Suppose if the task was not given to the U.S. navy to launch the first satellite with the Vanguard program but to Wernher Von Braun with his Explorer program? The result is pretty obvious. The U.S. would have beat the Russians. Explorer would have gone up before Sputnik. A more interesting question is why the U.S. chose the Vanguard program? After all the Army Redstone program was more ahead. In fact Vanguard failed several times while Explorer was sucessful in its first try. I have the theory that they did not want to give Von Braun the credit because of his V2 program which attacked London and also the mistreatment of the slave workers who worked on Nazi Germany's rocket program. What is your opinion of this? Is there any evidence of this in documents from that time? It has virtually nothing to do with the topic, but I'm reminded of a bit of doggerel that was popular with the folks at Redstone Arsenal (and elsewhere in the Army) at the time and, of course, related to the Vanguard failures: We shot a satellite into the air. It's orbiting, we know not where. Its radio signal, so loud and clear, Is lost somewhere in the atmosphere. Von Braun and his team were first brought to El Paso and White Sands Missile Range to continue work with the captured V-2s, work which ultimately resulted in the WAC Corporal, the Redstone and most of the "first generation" Army "artillery" rockets, as well as the Sergeant and the Pershing. Somewhere in this period, the political decision was made that the Army would be responsible for tactical, short range rockets, while the Air Force was assigned the responsibility for strategic rockets, the ICBMs. The Navy successfully argued for their own strategic missile development program, the end result of which was the Trident armed nuclear missile subs. The inter-service battle over who was to do what never really was completely resolved - the Army, in particular, kept pushing for longer and longer range tactical weapons, with the Pershing system as its crowning achievement. Here you had a missile with an official range of somewhere around 150 miles but which, in actuality, could be "extended" to IRBM ranges (on the order of 1000-2000 miles). The Army also retained the responsibility for developing air defense missiles, resulting in such successful programs as the Nike Hercules, the HAWK, several generations of man-portable, shoulder fired systems (the RedEye/Stinger among them), and the Patriot and the still-under-development THAAD, which descends from the Nike Zeus via the Patriot. Swell Ol' Bob -- Robert G. Melson | Rio Grande MicroSolutions | El Paso, Texas ----- The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes -- Thomas Paine |
#8
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What if Wernher Von Braun Given First Try To Launch First Satellite?
heich1 wrote:
I am aware of your reasons as they are the offical reasons why they failed to give Von Braun the initial go ahead. They didn't "failed to give Von Braun the initial go ahead", they specifically and deliberately shut him down. While the American people were not fully aware of Von Braun's past surely Eisenhower and his administration were. I don't believe that the American people were not aware, especially since Von Braun was a *very* public figure with regards to space exploration and space travel by that point and IIRC his history with the V2 (though not with slave labor) well known. It's not clear AFAICT, when the allegations about the camps became widely known. Not widely known or understood today is just how fast the "Nazis and Nips" were publicly rehabilitated from the bloodthirsty and implacable Enemies Of Democracy they were portrayed as in WWII into Stalwart Allies Against Communism. Maybe they did not want to give their true reasons publically and even did not tell their subordinates. If they did it might leak out and Von Braun could not be used even for military research. After all Eisenhower was the commander of Allied forces in World War 2. I realize what I am writing is speculation. Speculation not supported by the evidence known to have been available to the participants AFAIK. D. -- Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/ -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
#9
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What if Wernher Von Braun Given First Try To Launch First Satellite?
The Stewart Committee evaluating satellite proposals agreed with the
Navy's position that Vanguard would be the faster and easier path - Vanguard director Milt Rosen felt at the time that he could build on the Viking sounding rocket and do this for about $20M - and also felt the scientific return would be greater. The Committe was not charged with picking the less obviously military satellite or avoiding German participation. However, lingering but unspoken anti-German sentiment could have been a factor. There was definitely no charge to be first, but it wasn't needed - in any high-tech endeavour, US leadership was confident the "backwards" Russians would not and could not beat us, and not everyone thought it even mattered. There was also, very definitely, no charge that we should be second and let the Russians set the freedom-of-space precedent. Freedom of space was discussed a lot, since Ike had approved the start of reconsat development, but remember two important facts: 1. The Stewart committee allowed a second round of briefings and a revote, at direction of AF Secretary Donald Quarles, which meant the winner was not determined in advance 2. Ike was calming in speaking to the public about Sputnik, but he privately called Quarles on the carpet and demanded an explanation for why we were spending so much money on Vanguard (budget had quadrupled at that point) and yet had been beaten into space. Quarles noted the Russians had "unintentionally done us a good turn" by establishing freedom of space, and they had. So we did not intentionally launch second - there's no evidence at all for that. If the Stewart Committee had picked the Army proposal, I think it's safe to say we would have launched first. Not only was the Army further along toward an orbit-capable system, but von Braun and his boss, General Medaris, were among the people who did believe lanching first was important. They would have done it. (Medaris and others have written that he and von Braun were specifically ordered to make sure there were no "accidental" Army satellites. Army historians were unable to come up with a record of a communication on this for us, but it is plausible and could have been an order given by phone or delivered in person at one of the many occasions when the Army people were in DC or higher leadership was visiting Huntsville.) We worked these issues hard for our 2004 book, speaking to Rosen, Ernst Stuhlinger, Van Allen, and other US figures. This appears to be the case where the official story was true. Historians will always regret that neither Quarles (who died young in office) and Homer Joe Stewart never wrote memoirs, but they left plenty of documentation. Matt Bille co-author, The First Space Race: Launching the World's First Satellites (Texas A&M, 2004) |
#10
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What if Wernher Von Braun Given First Try To Launch First Satellite?
While the American people were not fully aware of Von Braun's past surely Eisenhower and his administration were. Von Braun's past was well know at the time. There were jokes during the startup of the space that our Nazis are better than Their (the Russians) Nazis or are they. Von Braun wrote a book - "I Aim for the Stars" Popular joke - subtitle is "But usually Hit London" There was enough publicity about von Braun and his key team members seeking out the US for surrender. In the news real one of von Braun's arms is in a cask. We were proud they wanted to come with us. And von Braun was a very public figure - the books with Chlesley Bonestell and movies like the conquest of space took the banner of space exploration to the general public - he also did 4 tomorrow land programs for Disneyland. The Enemies were Russia and China and we needed the Germans and Japanese on our side. By the time the space race really got going and three years of the Korean War we had a whole new definition of who was a friend and who was an enemy. |
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