ASTRO: Arp 92 When is a companion not a companion?

Try again with ASTRO: in the title.

Arp 92 falls under Arp's class: Spiral galaxies with companions on arms:
elliptical galaxy companions. If by "companion" Arp includes unrelated
line of sight galaxies then this might be true. In this case red shift
data, possibly not known when Arp prepared his catalog, shows the main
galaxy, NGC 7603 has a light travel time distance of 385 million light
years while the "companion", NGC 7603B is at a distance of 728 million
light years, nearly twice as far away. So it isn't the cause of the
distortion and tidal plume coming from NGC 7603. Though NED lists a
couple papers that do consider it a true companion even acknowledging
the red shift difference. Arp comments: "Very faint connection shows
better in red." Indicating he sees this plume as a true linkage. In
later years Arp denied red shift necessarily indicated distance though
at the time of the catalog he hadn't come to this belief. It is classed
as SA(rs)b: pec and is a Seyfert galaxy.

With time the "guilty" galaxy might be some distance away. There are
two candidates I find in the image. NGC 7589 to the west (right) is the
odd spiral with faint narrow arms. It has a red shift almost identical
to that of NGC 7603 that puts it at 389 million light years. It is
classed as SAB(rs)a: and is a Seyfert 1 galaxy. So it is the most
likely candidate for the true "companion". Though in the upper left
corner is another possible mugger. It is odd rather "sloshed" streak of
a galaxy known as SDSS J231929.76+002212.0 at a red shift that puts it a
bit further way at 407 million light years. Sometimes an interaction
will move the core of a galaxy from the center and toward the galaxy it
interacted with. Could that explain this galaxy? All this is
speculation on my part. Too bad we can't rewind time and see what this
system looked like a billion years ago.

Adding to the confusion is that the galaxy Arp considered the companion,
NGC 7603B is also a Seyfert 1 galaxy. Probably just a coincidence. Some
galaxies just have an active core. That could be the case here.

There happened to be three asteroids in this image. The one below Arp
92 is (123944) 2001 EU20 at an estimated 18.5 magnitude. The one to the
northwest corner is (218053) 2002 DT1 at an estimated 18.4 magnitude.
Yet it is obviously dimmer in my image. Though this may be an illusion
due to its more rapid motion. The third is in the lower right corner and
is (66172) 1998 VX45 at an estimated magnitude of 18.0.

West of Arp 92 beyond and a bit below NGC 7589 is an odd, apparently
double, very blue, galaxy. As I've mentioned many times before these
are often excluded from the SDSS catalog as listed in NED. This is
another example. It was picked up by the automatic plate survey so is
listed under it as APMUKS(BJ) B231533.01-000313.1 It also made LEDA as
LEDA 135885 but not Sloan. But NED makes the odd classification as Sb
or plate flaw! Then to make this more ridiculous they calculate a red
shift distance of 377 million light years for this possible plate flaw.
It is yet another strange galaxy that is part of the group with Arp
92. While it looks almost like a double galaxy at my resolution this is
an illusion. The Sloan survey did image the galaxy even if they didn't
catalog it. I've attached an image a 0.4" per pixel that shows it to be
a nice spiral on the bottom and a fuzz patch at the top. A distant
background galaxy above this. So is it a double galaxy or one with a
plume or what is it? Is it involved with Arp 92? Note that in my image
the upper half is a bit bluer than the lower half. Things just get
curiouser and curiouser.

There are quite a few galaxies right at the limit of this image. They
are about 22nd magnitude and about 5.1 billion light years away. At
least a few are of this same distance. I've prepared an annotated image
with galaxy and quasar distances labeled in billions of light years. As
usual the label is just right of the object unless this isn't possible
without hiding something. You may need to enlarge the image to see some
of these little faint guys. My limiting magnitude here was about 22.4
in green light.

Arp's image
http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level...big_arp92.jpeg

14" LX200R @ f/10, L=4x10', RGB=2x10'x3, STL-11000XM, Paramount ME

Rick
--
Correct domain name is arvig and it is net not com. Prefix is correct.
Third character is a zero rather than a capital "Oh".

The majority of scientific papers on SAO/NASA ADS are attempts to
explain the differences in the red shift - don't believe there is a
consensus on that issue. They do seem to support Arp.

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 01:48:49 -0500, Rick Johnson
wrote:

Try again with ASTRO: in the title.

Arp 92 falls under Arp's class: Spiral galaxies with companions on arms:
elliptical galaxy companions. If by "companion" Arp includes unrelated
line of sight galaxies then this might be true. In this case red shift
data, possibly not known when Arp prepared his catalog, shows the main
galaxy, NGC 7603 has a light travel time distance of 385 million light
years while the "companion", NGC 7603B is at a distance of 728 million
light years, nearly twice as far away. So it isn't the cause of the
distortion and tidal plume coming from NGC 7603. Though NED lists a
couple papers that do consider it a true companion even acknowledging
the red shift difference. Arp comments: "Very faint connection shows
better in red." Indicating he sees this plume as a true linkage. In
later years Arp denied red shift necessarily indicated distance though
at the time of the catalog he hadn't come to this belief. It is classed
as SA(rs)b: pec and is a Seyfert galaxy.

With time the "guilty" galaxy might be some distance away. There are
two candidates I find in the image. NGC 7589 to the west (right) is the
odd spiral with faint narrow arms. It has a red shift almost identical
to that of NGC 7603 that puts it at 389 million light years. It is
classed as SAB(rs)a: and is a Seyfert 1 galaxy. So it is the most
likely candidate for the true "companion". Though in the upper left
corner is another possible mugger. It is odd rather "sloshed" streak of
a galaxy known as SDSS J231929.76+002212.0 at a red shift that puts it a
bit further way at 407 million light years. Sometimes an interaction
will move the core of a galaxy from the center and toward the galaxy it
interacted with. Could that explain this galaxy? All this is
speculation on my part. Too bad we can't rewind time and see what this
system looked like a billion years ago.

Adding to the confusion is that the galaxy Arp considered the companion,
NGC 7603B is also a Seyfert 1 galaxy. Probably just a coincidence. Some
galaxies just have an active core. That could be the case here.

There happened to be three asteroids in this image. The one below Arp
92 is (123944) 2001 EU20 at an estimated 18.5 magnitude. The one to the
northwest corner is (218053) 2002 DT1 at an estimated 18.4 magnitude.
Yet it is obviously dimmer in my image. Though this may be an illusion
due to its more rapid motion. The third is in the lower right corner and
is (66172) 1998 VX45 at an estimated magnitude of 18.0.

West of Arp 92 beyond and a bit below NGC 7589 is an odd, apparently
double, very blue, galaxy. As I've mentioned many times before these
are often excluded from the SDSS catalog as listed in NED. This is
another example. It was picked up by the automatic plate survey so is
listed under it as APMUKS(BJ) B231533.01-000313.1 It also made LEDA as
LEDA 135885 but not Sloan. But NED makes the odd classification as Sb
or plate flaw! Then to make this more ridiculous they calculate a red
shift distance of 377 million light years for this possible plate flaw.
It is yet another strange galaxy that is part of the group with Arp
92. While it looks almost like a double galaxy at my resolution this is
an illusion. The Sloan survey did image the galaxy even if they didn't
catalog it. I've attached an image a 0.4" per pixel that shows it to be
a nice spiral on the bottom and a fuzz patch at the top. A distant
background galaxy above this. So is it a double galaxy or one with a
plume or what is it? Is it involved with Arp 92? Note that in my image
the upper half is a bit bluer than the lower half. Things just get
curiouser and curiouser.

There are quite a few galaxies right at the limit of this image. They
are about 22nd magnitude and about 5.1 billion light years away. At
least a few are of this same distance. I've prepared an annotated image
with galaxy and quasar distances labeled in billions of light years. As
usual the label is just right of the object unless this isn't possible
without hiding something. You may need to enlarge the image to see some
of these little faint guys. My limiting magnitude here was about 22.4
in green light.

Arp's image
http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level...big_arp92.jpeg

14" LX200R @ f/10, L=4x10', RGB=2x10'x3, STL-11000XM, Paramount ME

Rick

Yes, I saw all those attempts. They reminded me very much of the
attempts to explain the non existent jet in Arp 192. Everyone keeps
calculating the changes of this being a coincidence and coming up with
that being exceedingly unlikely. But, to me, that's very bad logic.
There are zillions of coincidences that could be, some must occur. We
ignore those that don't happen and see the few that do as impossible or
nearly so. Many years ago using a super ancient IBM 1420 (core memory,
discrete transistor computer, a math major and I worked with coincidence
occurrence and came up many astounding ones that seemed to defy logic.
I see nothing different about this object. Besides, it totally
elminates the red shift issue. Until something else is learned I'm
sticking to coincidence as the best explanation.

To make a simple analogy the birthday paradox is a good one. The chance
that any two people have the same birthday is 1 in 365 yet in a room of
30 the chance of some two people, not a particular pair but just some
pair, is quite likely with 30 or more random people. Then add in that
the alignment doesn't have to be (and in this case isn't) perfect so a
near miss is fine and you have to have such an example. Arp was
constantly running afoul of this in his various red shift arguments.

Rick


On 7/11/2010 12:33 PM, glen youman wrote:
The majority of scientific papers on SAO/NASA ADS are attempts to
explain the differences in the red shift - don't believe there is a
consensus on that issue. They do seem to support Arp.

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 01:48:49 -0500, Rick
wrote:

Try again with ASTRO: in the title.

Arp 92 falls under Arp's class: Spiral galaxies with companions on arms:
elliptical galaxy companions. If by "companion" Arp includes unrelated
line of sight galaxies then this might be true. In this case red shift
data, possibly not known when Arp prepared his catalog, shows the main
galaxy, NGC 7603 has a light travel time distance of 385 million light
years while the "companion", NGC 7603B is at a distance of 728 million
light years, nearly twice as far away. So it isn't the cause of the
distortion and tidal plume coming from NGC 7603. Though NED lists a
couple papers that do consider it a true companion even acknowledging
the red shift difference. Arp comments: "Very faint connection shows
better in red." Indicating he sees this plume as a true linkage. In
later years Arp denied red shift necessarily indicated distance though
at the time of the catalog he hadn't come to this belief. It is classed
as SA(rs)b: pec and is a Seyfert galaxy.

With time the "guilty" galaxy might be some distance away. There are
two candidates I find in the image. NGC 7589 to the west (right) is the
odd spiral with faint narrow arms. It has a red shift almost identical
to that of NGC 7603 that puts it at 389 million light years. It is
classed as SAB(rs)a: and is a Seyfert 1 galaxy. So it is the most
likely candidate for the true "companion". Though in the upper left
corner is another possible mugger. It is odd rather "sloshed" streak of
a galaxy known as SDSS J231929.76+002212.0 at a red shift that puts it a
bit further way at 407 million light years. Sometimes an interaction
will move the core of a galaxy from the center and toward the galaxy it
interacted with. Could that explain this galaxy? All this is
speculation on my part. Too bad we can't rewind time and see what this
system looked like a billion years ago.

Adding to the confusion is that the galaxy Arp considered the companion,
NGC 7603B is also a Seyfert 1 galaxy. Probably just a coincidence. Some
galaxies just have an active core. That could be the case here.

There happened to be three asteroids in this image. The one below Arp
92 is (123944) 2001 EU20 at an estimated 18.5 magnitude. The one to the
northwest corner is (218053) 2002 DT1 at an estimated 18.4 magnitude.
Yet it is obviously dimmer in my image. Though this may be an illusion
due to its more rapid motion. The third is in the lower right corner and
is (66172) 1998 VX45 at an estimated magnitude of 18.0.

West of Arp 92 beyond and a bit below NGC 7589 is an odd, apparently
double, very blue, galaxy. As I've mentioned many times before these
are often excluded from the SDSS catalog as listed in NED. This is
another example. It was picked up by the automatic plate survey so is
listed under it as APMUKS(BJ) B231533.01-000313.1 It also made LEDA as
LEDA 135885 but not Sloan. But NED makes the odd classification as Sb
or plate flaw! Then to make this more ridiculous they calculate a red
shift distance of 377 million light years for this possible plate flaw.
It is yet another strange galaxy that is part of the group with Arp
92. While it looks almost like a double galaxy at my resolution this is
an illusion. The Sloan survey did image the galaxy even if they didn't
catalog it. I've attached an image a 0.4" per pixel that shows it to be
a nice spiral on the bottom and a fuzz patch at the top. A distant
background galaxy above this. So is it a double galaxy or one with a
plume or what is it? Is it involved with Arp 92? Note that in my image
the upper half is a bit bluer than the lower half. Things just get
curiouser and curiouser.

There are quite a few galaxies right at the limit of this image. They
are about 22nd magnitude and about 5.1 billion light years away. At
least a few are of this same distance. I've prepared an annotated image
with galaxy and quasar distances labeled in billions of light years. As
usual the label is just right of the object unless this isn't possible
without hiding something. You may need to enlarge the image to see some
of these little faint guys. My limiting magnitude here was about 22.4
in green light.

Arp's image
http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level...big_arp92.jpeg

14" LX200R @ f/10, L=4x10', RGB=2x10'x3, STL-11000XM, Paramount ME

Rick


--
Correct domain name is arvig and it is net not com. Prefix is correct.
Third character is a zero rather than a capital "Oh".