A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Others » Misc
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Silvertooth Aether Experiment



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old June 18th 10, 11:38 AM posted to alt.astronomy
Painius Painius is offline
Banned
 
First recorded activity by SpaceBanter: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,144
Default Silvertooth Aether Experiment

"Double-A" wrote in message...
...
On Jun 17, 4:37 pm, "Painius" wrote:
"Double-A" wrote in message...
...
On Jun 14, 5:59 pm, "Painius" wrote:
"Double-A" wrote in message...
...


Why does no one mention an aether detection experiment by E. W.
Silvertooth in the 1980's?


"Concerning the Silvertooth experiment: The Michelson-Morley
experiment, which did not show any translational motion through an
aether or other medium of propagation, was later shown to have a
fundamental flaw: The standing waves that are reflected back onto a
mirror become phase locked on the mirror, and hence to its motion
through space. Silvertooth built a standing wave experiment that
avoids the phase locking encountered in the Michelson-Morley setup. It
uses a configuration similar to the Sagnac experiment, which many
years ago did detect motion relative to an aether. Silvertooth's
addition was a sensor capable of measuring the spacing between
standing wave nodes.


This spacing is dependent upon the orientation of the apparatus
relative to the Earth's motion, and this fact made the Earth's motion
measurable. Silvertooth measured the 378 km/s motion of the Earth in
this experiment. Some references a Silvertooth, E.W., "Experimental
Detection of the Ether", Speculations in Science and Technology, Vol.
10, No.1, page 3 (1987) In that same issue beginning on page 9, is an
excellent "Plain English" summary by H. Aspden entitled 'On the
Silvertooth Experiment'. [We are heading toward the Constellation
Leo.]"


What is amazing is that the results of Silvertooth's measurement of
the Earth's movement through the aether is fully consistent both in
speed and direction with results later computed for Earth's velocity
relative to the cosmic background radiation rest frame! However it
differs from results obtained by Miller in the 1920's.


Double-A


http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...periments.html


That's an interesting index to more detail on these kinds
of experiments. Look for the section: Experiments not
consistent with SR. The author makes it sound like the
aether is dead and gone, and to even try to resurrect it
would blow the lid off of modern physics.


What does that say for modern physics? It's as if anyone
were to prove beyond any shadow of doubt that there is
a spatial medium, that it would shake SR right off the tree.
Sad commentary.


It is as though any experiment involving a detection of aether in the
1980's must be ignored, because that issue was resolved decades
earlier. The issue is settled for all time; don't confuse us with any
more experimental results!

I don't know how valid the critique is of Silvertooth's experiment. I
would have to do a lot more reading to get a feel for that. I notice
E. W. Silvertooth has no entry in Wikipedia. But here is an excerpt
from another sight on Silvertooth's experiment about how modern
alternative ideas are suppressed:

"Silvertooth's Experiment

In a 1986 letter to Nature[42] Ernest W. Silvertooth reported that he
constructed an interferometer capable of detecting the absolute motion
of the Earth with respect to the ether. In Experimental detection of
the ether[43] and Motion through the Ether[44], Silvertooth reported
that on the particular day of his measurements, the Earth moved at 378
km/s towards the constellation Leo. If relativity is correct, than
this result should be complete garbage.

Silvertooth published his findings before NASA launched COBE, the
first satellite to accurately measure the cosmic microwave background
(CMB). Due to Doppler shift, there is a slight anisotropy in the
spectrum of the CMB. Based on precise measurements of this anisotropy,
it was determined that, relative to the CMB, the heliocentric frame
moves at 390 km/s towards Leo. Given the earth's orbital speed of 30
km/s, this is a very good agreement with Silvertooth's measurement. In
a refined experiment[45], Silvertooth and Whitney confirmed the
earlier result and found a speed of v = 378 km/s.

A citation search through ISI Web of Science[47] reveals no references
to any of Silvertooth's papers in the mainstream scientific
literature. An online document[46] briefly mentions and dismisses it
on the grounds that both the experiment and the theoretical analysis
are flawed, but given how well Silvertooth's result agrees with the
independently determined motion of the Earth through the CMB, error
seems to be an insufficient explanation. Unless Silvertooth committed
outright fraud by simply making a lucky guess as to the Earth's
velocity relative to the CMB and then ascribing this guess to an
imaginary experiment, the inescapable conclusion would be that
translation can be measured by purely electromagnetic means and that
Einstein's theory of special relativity is falsified."

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_supr.htm

Double-A

P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A

So sorry, DA, but documents like this are suspect when the
author goes to so much trouble to write an interesting piece,
and then he doesn't even spell-check it... "Tansmutation"?


Where do you see "Transmutation"? If you mean "translation", it is
used correctly in context and means moving in a straight line through
space.

P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A

Not far into the article -- right after the bit about the "Cold
Fusion Scandal" -- the section title reads "Tansmutation". At
first i thought it was something new i'd never heard of before.
I *hate* it when that happens as the result of a mere spell-
check problem.

Anyway, the main problem with Silvertooth's work is that he
didn't even bother to check for errors, not the errors just by
themselves.


I would have to look at that further.

And then there's the ongoing problem of non-
repeatability. Dayton Miller's work was not repeatable, then
Silvertooth comes along with different results and *his* work
is not repeatable.


The article said he repeated it with a colleague.

P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A

Doesn't count. Especially when the same person is involved,
and *ESPECIALLY* when the error-checking still is not done.

Moreover, even if somebody manages to
actually use an interferometer to find the aether (which i do
most strongly doubt, since i agree with oc that any attempt
to use an interferometer to find an energy that is not EM in
nature will always deliver a null result or be erroneous like
Miller's and Silvertooth's) it would only *refine* relativity
theory, and not nullify it.


Special Relativity will no doubt just be adjusted as it was when the
results of the Sagnac experiment came in.

Also, it's a pretty far cry from measuring the velocity of the
planet to measuring a luminiferous aether. Just because
Silvertooth was able to accurately measure the velocity of
Earth does not mean to me necessarily that his other work
is correct.


Measuring the velocity of the Earth from the aether is a lot!

P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A

How do you know that's what happened? Maybe, since he
wasn't performing the test scientifically, maybe he was using
the CMBR without knowing it. Or something else. There's
just no reason at this point to be able to use these results to
definitively say that there's an aether.

I honestly think that using an interferometer to try to detect
the aether is foolish, unless someone can build one that can
detect the type of energy that comprises the SPED at the
minuscule, tiny wavelengths of "granulons" and gravitational
energy. Good luck with that?


Well, detecting the SPED is easy. Every time you see an apple fall
from a tree, you've detected it!

Double-A

P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A

It's even measurable ! Just step on a scale !

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

--
Indelibly yours,
Paine Ellsworth

P.S.: "Only I can change my life. No one can do
it for me." Carol Burnett

P.P.S.: http://www.painellsworth.net
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Paine_Ellsworth


  #12  
Old June 19th 10, 05:00 PM posted to alt.astronomy
Double-A[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,635
Default Silvertooth Aether Experiment

On Jun 18, 3:38*am, "Painius" wrote:
"Double-A" wrote in message...

...
On Jun 17, 4:37 pm, "Painius" wrote:





"Double-A" wrote in message...
...
On Jun 14, 5:59 pm, "Painius" wrote:
"Double-A" wrote in message...
....


Why does no one mention an aether detection experiment by E. W.
Silvertooth in the 1980's?


"Concerning the Silvertooth experiment: The Michelson-Morley
experiment, which did not show any translational motion through an
aether or other medium of propagation, was later shown to have a
fundamental flaw: The standing waves that are reflected back onto a
mirror become phase locked on the mirror, and hence to its motion
through space. Silvertooth built a standing wave experiment that
avoids the phase locking encountered in the Michelson-Morley setup. It
uses a configuration similar to the Sagnac experiment, which many
years ago did detect motion relative to an aether. Silvertooth's
addition was a sensor capable of measuring the spacing between
standing wave nodes.


This spacing is dependent upon the orientation of the apparatus
relative to the Earth's motion, and this fact made the Earth's motion
measurable. Silvertooth measured the 378 km/s motion of the Earth in
this experiment. Some references a Silvertooth, E.W., "Experimental
Detection of the Ether", Speculations in Science and Technology, Vol.
10, No.1, page 3 (1987) In that same issue beginning on page 9, is an
excellent "Plain English" summary by H. Aspden entitled 'On the
Silvertooth Experiment'. [We are heading toward the Constellation
Leo.]"


What is amazing is that the results of Silvertooth's measurement of
the Earth's movement through the aether is fully consistent both in
speed and direction with results later computed for Earth's velocity
relative to the cosmic background radiation rest frame! However it
differs from results obtained by Miller in the 1920's.


Double-A


http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...periments.html


That's an interesting index to more detail on these kinds
of experiments. Look for the section: Experiments not
consistent with SR. The author makes it sound like the
aether is dead and gone, and to even try to resurrect it
would blow the lid off of modern physics.


What does that say for modern physics? It's as if anyone
were to prove beyond any shadow of doubt that there is
a spatial medium, that it would shake SR right off the tree.
Sad commentary.


It is as though any experiment involving a detection of aether in the
1980's must be ignored, because that issue was resolved decades
earlier. The issue is settled for all time; don't confuse us with any
more experimental results!


I don't know how valid the critique is of Silvertooth's experiment. I
would have to do a lot more reading to get a feel for that. I notice
E. W. Silvertooth has no entry in Wikipedia. But here is an excerpt
from another sight on Silvertooth's experiment about how modern
alternative ideas are suppressed:


"Silvertooth's Experiment


In a 1986 letter to Nature[42] Ernest W. Silvertooth reported that he
constructed an interferometer capable of detecting the absolute motion
of the Earth with respect to the ether. In Experimental detection of
the ether[43] and Motion through the Ether[44], Silvertooth reported
that on the particular day of his measurements, the Earth moved at 378
km/s towards the constellation Leo. If relativity is correct, than
this result should be complete garbage.


Silvertooth published his findings before NASA launched COBE, the
first satellite to accurately measure the cosmic microwave background
(CMB). Due to Doppler shift, there is a slight anisotropy in the
spectrum of the CMB. Based on precise measurements of this anisotropy,
it was determined that, relative to the CMB, the heliocentric frame
moves at 390 km/s towards Leo. Given the earth's orbital speed of 30
km/s, this is a very good agreement with Silvertooth's measurement. In
a refined experiment[45], Silvertooth and Whitney confirmed the
earlier result and found a speed of v = 378 km/s.


A citation search through ISI Web of Science[47] reveals no references
to any of Silvertooth's papers in the mainstream scientific
literature. An online document[46] briefly mentions and dismisses it
on the grounds that both the experiment and the theoretical analysis
are flawed, but given how well Silvertooth's result agrees with the
independently determined motion of the Earth through the CMB, error
seems to be an insufficient explanation. Unless Silvertooth committed
outright fraud by simply making a lucky guess as to the Earth's
velocity relative to the CMB and then ascribing this guess to an
imaginary experiment, the inescapable conclusion would be that
translation can be measured by purely electromagnetic means and that
Einstein's theory of special relativity is falsified."


http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_supr.htm


Double-A


P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A


So sorry, DA, but documents like this are suspect when the
author goes to so much trouble to write an interesting piece,
and then he doesn't even spell-check it... "Tansmutation"?


Where do you see "Transmutation"? *If you mean "translation", it is
used correctly in context and means moving in a straight line through
space.

* P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A

Not far into the article -- right after the bit about the "Cold
Fusion Scandal" -- the section title reads "Tansmutation". *At
first i thought it was something new i'd never heard of before.
I *hate* it when that happens as the result of a mere spell-
check problem.

Anyway, the main problem with Silvertooth's work is that he
didn't even bother to check for errors, not the errors just by
themselves.


I would have to look at that further.

And then there's the ongoing problem of non-
repeatability. Dayton Miller's work was not repeatable, then
Silvertooth comes along with different results and *his* work
is not repeatable.


The article said he repeated it with a colleague.

* P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A

Doesn't count. *Especially when the same person is involved,
and *ESPECIALLY* when the error-checking still is not done.

Moreover, even if somebody manages to
actually use an interferometer to find the aether (which i do
most strongly doubt, since i agree with oc that any attempt
to use an interferometer to find an energy that is not EM in
nature will always deliver a null result or be erroneous like
Miller's and Silvertooth's) it would only *refine* relativity
theory, and not nullify it.


Special Relativity will no doubt just be adjusted as it was when the
results of the Sagnac experiment came in.

Also, it's a pretty far cry from measuring the velocity of the
planet to measuring a luminiferous aether. Just because
Silvertooth was able to accurately measure the velocity of
Earth does not mean to me necessarily that his other work
is correct.


Measuring the velocity of the Earth from the aether is a lot!

* P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A

How do you know that's what happened? *Maybe, since he
wasn't performing the test scientifically, maybe he was using
the CMBR without knowing it. *Or something else. *There's
just no reason at this point to be able to use these results to
definitively say that there's an aether.

I honestly think that using an interferometer to try to detect
the aether is foolish, unless someone can build one that can
detect the type of energy that comprises the SPED at the
minuscule, tiny wavelengths of "granulons" and gravitational
energy. Good luck with that?


Well, detecting the SPED is easy. *Every time you see an apple fall
from a tree, you've detected it!

Double-A

* P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A * P I T A

It's even measurable ! *Just step on a scale !

happy days and...
* *starry starry nights!

--
Indelibly yours,
Paine Ellsworth



I found out that Silvertooth was partially funded by the Air Force and
used very expensive equipment. However dubious his results may seem,
if the Government thought he might be onto something, they might have
continued his experiment in secret government labs, and we would be
none the wiser. You can imagine how important having an instrument
that can tell absolute direction might be to military navigation and
missile guidance systems.

Double-A

  #13  
Old June 21st 10, 05:54 PM posted to alt.astronomy
Painius Painius is offline
Banned
 
First recorded activity by SpaceBanter: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,144
Default Silvertooth Aether Experiment

"Double-A" wrote in message...
...
On Jun 18, 3:38 am, "Painius" wrote:
"Double-A" wrote in message...
...
On Jun 17, 4:37 pm, "Painius" wrote:
"Double-A" wrote in message...
...
On Jun 14, 5:59 pm, "Painius" wrote:
"Double-A" wrote in message...
...


Why does no one mention an aether detection experiment by E. W.
Silvertooth in the 1980's?


"Concerning the Silvertooth experiment: The Michelson-Morley
experiment, which did not show any translational motion through an
aether or other medium of propagation, was later shown to have a
fundamental flaw: The standing waves that are reflected back onto a
mirror become phase locked on the mirror, and hence to its motion
through space. Silvertooth built a standing wave experiment that
avoids the phase locking encountered in the Michelson-Morley setup.
It
uses a configuration similar to the Sagnac experiment, which many
years ago did detect motion relative to an aether. Silvertooth's
addition was a sensor capable of measuring the spacing between
standing wave nodes.


This spacing is dependent upon the orientation of the apparatus
relative to the Earth's motion, and this fact made the Earth's
motion
measurable. Silvertooth measured the 378 km/s motion of the Earth in
this experiment. Some references a Silvertooth, E.W.,
"Experimental
Detection of the Ether", Speculations in Science and Technology,
Vol.
10, No.1, page 3 (1987) In that same issue beginning on page 9, is
an
excellent "Plain English" summary by H. Aspden entitled 'On the
Silvertooth Experiment'. [We are heading toward the Constellation
Leo.]"


What is amazing is that the results of Silvertooth's measurement of
the Earth's movement through the aether is fully consistent both in
speed and direction with results later computed for Earth's velocity
relative to the cosmic background radiation rest frame! However it
differs from results obtained by Miller in the 1920's.


Double-A


http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...periments.html


That's an interesting index to more detail on these kinds
of experiments. Look for the section: Experiments not
consistent with SR. The author makes it sound like the
aether is dead and gone, and to even try to resurrect it
would blow the lid off of modern physics.


What does that say for modern physics? It's as if anyone
were to prove beyond any shadow of doubt that there is
a spatial medium, that it would shake SR right off the tree.
Sad commentary.


It is as though any experiment involving a detection of aether in the
1980's must be ignored, because that issue was resolved decades
earlier. The issue is settled for all time; don't confuse us with any
more experimental results!


I don't know how valid the critique is of Silvertooth's experiment. I
would have to do a lot more reading to get a feel for that. I notice
E. W. Silvertooth has no entry in Wikipedia. But here is an excerpt
from another sight on Silvertooth's experiment about how modern
alternative ideas are suppressed:


"Silvertooth's Experiment


In a 1986 letter to Nature[42] Ernest W. Silvertooth reported that he
constructed an interferometer capable of detecting the absolute motion
of the Earth with respect to the ether. In Experimental detection of
the ether[43] and Motion through the Ether[44], Silvertooth reported
that on the particular day of his measurements, the Earth moved at 378
km/s towards the constellation Leo. If relativity is correct, than
this result should be complete garbage.


Silvertooth published his findings before NASA launched COBE, the
first satellite to accurately measure the cosmic microwave background
(CMB). Due to Doppler shift, there is a slight anisotropy in the
spectrum of the CMB. Based on precise measurements of this anisotropy,
it was determined that, relative to the CMB, the heliocentric frame
moves at 390 km/s towards Leo. Given the earth's orbital speed of 30
km/s, this is a very good agreement with Silvertooth's measurement. In
a refined experiment[45], Silvertooth and Whitney confirmed the
earlier result and found a speed of v = 378 km/s.


A citation search through ISI Web of Science[47] reveals no references
to any of Silvertooth's papers in the mainstream scientific
literature. An online document[46] briefly mentions and dismisses it
on the grounds that both the experiment and the theoretical analysis
are flawed, but given how well Silvertooth's result agrees with the
independently determined motion of the Earth through the CMB, error
seems to be an insufficient explanation. Unless Silvertooth committed
outright fraud by simply making a lucky guess as to the Earth's
velocity relative to the CMB and then ascribing this guess to an
imaginary experiment, the inescapable conclusion would be that
translation can be measured by purely electromagnetic means and that
Einstein's theory of special relativity is falsified."


http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_supr.htm


Double-A


P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A


So sorry, DA, but documents like this are suspect when the
author goes to so much trouble to write an interesting piece,
and then he doesn't even spell-check it... "Tansmutation"?


Where do you see "Transmutation"? If you mean "translation", it is
used correctly in context and means moving in a straight line through
space.

P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A

Not far into the article -- right after the bit about the "Cold
Fusion Scandal" -- the section title reads "Tansmutation". At
first i thought it was something new i'd never heard of before.
I *hate* it when that happens as the result of a mere spell-
check problem.

Anyway, the main problem with Silvertooth's work is that he
didn't even bother to check for errors, not the errors just by
themselves.


I would have to look at that further.

And then there's the ongoing problem of non-
repeatability. Dayton Miller's work was not repeatable, then
Silvertooth comes along with different results and *his* work
is not repeatable.


The article said he repeated it with a colleague.

P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A

Doesn't count. Especially when the same person is involved,
and *ESPECIALLY* when the error-checking still is not done.

Moreover, even if somebody manages to
actually use an interferometer to find the aether (which i do
most strongly doubt, since i agree with oc that any attempt
to use an interferometer to find an energy that is not EM in
nature will always deliver a null result or be erroneous like
Miller's and Silvertooth's) it would only *refine* relativity
theory, and not nullify it.


Special Relativity will no doubt just be adjusted as it was when the
results of the Sagnac experiment came in.

Also, it's a pretty far cry from measuring the velocity of the
planet to measuring a luminiferous aether. Just because
Silvertooth was able to accurately measure the velocity of
Earth does not mean to me necessarily that his other work
is correct.


Measuring the velocity of the Earth from the aether is a lot!

P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A

How do you know that's what happened? Maybe, since he
wasn't performing the test scientifically, maybe he was using
the CMBR without knowing it. Or something else. There's
just no reason at this point to be able to use these results to
definitively say that there's an aether.

I honestly think that using an interferometer to try to detect
the aether is foolish, unless someone can build one that can
detect the type of energy that comprises the SPED at the
minuscule, tiny wavelengths of "granulons" and gravitational
energy. Good luck with that?


Well, detecting the SPED is easy. Every time you see an apple fall
from a tree, you've detected it!

Double-A

P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A

It's even measurable ! Just step on a scale !


I found out that Silvertooth was partially funded by the Air Force and
used very expensive equipment. However dubious his results may seem,
if the Government thought he might be onto something, they might have
continued his experiment in secret government labs, and we would be
none the wiser. You can imagine how important having an instrument
that can tell absolute direction might be to military navigation and
missile guidance systems.

Double-A

P I T A P I T A P I T A P I T A

Yes, and just like Nikky, ol' E.W.'s work lends even
more of a mysterious aura to the U.S. and our awesome
defense capability (let alone our potential to make a
preemptive strike, if deemed necessary).

happy days and...
starry starry nights!

--
Indelibly yours,
Paine Ellsworth

P.S. "Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be
understood. Now is the time to understand more,
so that we may fear less."
Marie Curie--chemist & physicist


P.P.S.: http://www.painellsworth.net
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Paine_Ellsworth


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aether or whatever George Dishman Astronomy Misc 342 March 27th 07 05:07 PM
Aether or whatever Researcher Astronomy Misc 17 October 24th 06 06:20 PM
Aether or whatever [email protected] Astronomy Misc 2 October 17th 06 05:17 AM
other planets that have lightning bolts-- do they have plate tectonics ?? do the experiment with electric motor and also Faradays first electric motor is this the Oersted experiment writ large on the size of continental plates a_plutonium Astronomy Misc 4 September 16th 06 01:13 PM
What if there is an Aether The Postman Misc 28 April 28th 05 10:48 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.