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  #91  
Old June 14th 04, 06:43 PM
Ami Silberman
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"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote in message
.. .
Friend of mine developed an undead game... any battle role was a d4, d6,

d10
and I think a d20. All had their place and it made combat fairly quick

and
easy.

There is a simple miniatures set of rules "Gentlemen of France, Fire First",
about warfare in the age of reason (and a companion set for pirate actions
"Limeys and Slimeys") that uses different dice. The better trained a unit,
the larger the die it rolls for inflicting casualties. The better moral a
unit has, the larger the die it rolls to keep from routing. It uses d4, d6,
d10, d12, d16, and d20. (Yes, someone makes a d16). I think that only the
Maison du Roi gets to use the d20.


  #92  
Old June 14th 04, 06:45 PM
Ami Silberman
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"LaDonna Wyss" wrote in message
om...

Hey, folks--I wasn't sure where to post this one because there's been
so much blathering, but how about this for a question: You do realize
the first three groups of astronauts were recruited from within the
military, and by that I mean they received orders to show up at
such-and-so place at such-and-so time with absolutely no clue why they
were there?


I thought that they had to apply first, and then the candidates received the
orders.


  #93  
Old June 14th 04, 06:57 PM
Ami Silberman
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"Stuf4" wrote in message
m...
From Ami Silberman:
"LaDonna Wyss" wrote
"Ami Silberman" wrote in message

...


No, a NASA operation. Even "stuffy" wouldn't argue that it was a

military
operation. AS-204 was not under military command or control. It did
involve several military personnel as flight crew.


So an active duty military crew commander does not qualify as placing
AS-204 under military command? I expect that Gus would not have
agreed to that statement (let alone Gus's boss, active duty Air Force
General Sam Phillips).

I don't have time to actually go and look at the relevant FMs, but AS-204
was not under Phillips operational comman in the traditional military sense.
He was neither the Director of Flight Operations, nor anywhere else in the
direct operational chain above them (IIRC). Gus's boss would have been
Slayton, anyway.


  #94  
Old June 14th 04, 07:27 PM
Scott Hedrick
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"Ami Silberman" wrote in message
...

"LaDonna Wyss" wrote in message
om...

Hey, folks--I wasn't sure where to post this one because there's been
so much blathering, but how about this for a question: You do realize
the first three groups of astronauts were recruited from within the
military, and by that I mean they received orders to show up at
such-and-so place at such-and-so time with absolutely no clue why they
were there?


I thought that they had to apply first, and then the candidates received

the
orders.


Shhhh! It's LaToya's fantasy.


  #95  
Old June 14th 04, 08:33 PM
Peter Stickney
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In article ,
Mary Shafer writes:
On 13 Jun 2004 20:32:18 -0700, (LaDonna Wyss)
wrote:

In fact, I have a cute piece of information for you: Did you know
that, according to St. Louis Military Personnel records, the Air Force
never heard of Gus Grissom or Ed White, and the Navy never heard of
Roger Chaffee? (Those of you who have emailed me to send information,
would you like copies of those "Lt. Col. Who?" letters as well?)
Steve Chaffee thought that was a riot, especially considering his
father was given a medal posthumously for his service during the Cuban
Missile Crisis. I've tried the Pentagon, Air Force and Navy
headquarters in Washington, and the aforementioned personnel office
(and yes, I sent them everything but social security numbers and
fingerprints; there is NO excuse for them having "no record" of Gus,
Ed, and Roger.)
I'm currently trying the historical records archives of those branches
of the military, but as it stands at the moment, three men died on Pad
34 who (according to the military) never existed. :-0


Scott may not have mentioned this, but his father's name was Virgil.
He was nicknamed Gus, but the USAF wouldn't have that on his records.
As far as they're concerned, no one named Gus Grissom existed in the
USAF and they're right.


She also seems to be unaware of the fire that destroyed most of the
military personnel records (16-18 million people's worth, with no
backup copies whatsoever) on July 12, 1973. Getting DD-214s for
anybody whose service dates from before that time is problematical.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
  #96  
Old June 14th 04, 09:17 PM
Peter Stickney
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In article Ryczc.714922$Pk3.101441@pd7tw1no,
Dave Michelson writes:
Mary Shafer wrote:

The X-15 was an NACA/NASA project that the USAF participated in. It was
never a USAF project. Instead it was always a joint NASA/USAF project,
except early on when it was an NACA/USAF project.


Actually, it was a joint NASA/USAF/USN project, although the USAF took a much
larger and more visible role. And it was a strictly NACA project until July
1954, when the services signed on :-)

In fact, the first ever U.S. (preliminary) astronaut selection was
announced in a USAF briefing concerning MISS on 25 June 1958. The list
included test pilots Robert Walker, Scott Crossfield, Neil Armstrong,
Robert Rushworth, William Bridgeman, Alvin White, Iven Kincheloe, Robert
White, and Jack McKay.


Scotty, Neil, and Jack were civilians, not military.


So was Bill Bridgeman, who was a Company Test Pilot for Douglas.

Who said they were military? BTW, mention of this "preliminary selection"
is mentioned in, among other places,

NASM Air & Space Magazine
http://www.airspacemag.com/asm/mag/i.../AS/First.html

If this is incorrect, the Smithsonian should be notified so the on-line
version of the article can be corrected.

They all worked at NASA FRC until Scotty went to NAA.


At the time, they worked for NACA ;-)


Except for Bridgeman.

...NASA test pilot, not military, so he was highly unlikely to be an X-20
candidate. However, he did fly in a NASA project in support of X-20,
mimicking the RTLS escape sequence for the X-20 if the rocket had a problem
on launch and the X-20 had to set itself free and land.


Mark Wade lists Armstrong as one of seven pilots who were selected in Apr
1960 as pilots for X-20A Dyna-Soar spaceplane flights. Qualification: Assigned
from pool of active USAF and NASA Test Pilots. If this is incorrect, we
should notify Mark.

http://www.astronautix.com/astrogrp/usap1960.htm


Neil was titled as Test Pilot Consultant.


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
  #97  
Old June 14th 04, 09:17 PM
Peter Stickney
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In article ,
OM om@our_blessed_lady_mary_of_the_holy_NASA_researc h_facility.org writes:
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:07:17 -0700, Mary Shafer
wrote:

However, he did fly in a NASA project in support of X-20,
mimicking the RTLS escape sequence for the X-20 if the rocket had a
problem on launch and the X-20 had to set itself free and land.


...Details! Details! Aunt Mary, tell us a bedtime story about this
one, PLEASE!!! :-) :-) :-) :-)


The Dyna-Soar abort tests used one of the Douglas F5D Skylancers.
They modified teh aircraft to reduce the thrust at FLight Idle from
500# to 200#, to better match the X-20's L/D ratio (By opening the AB
nozzle fully, thereby over-expanding the jet exhaust.)

The profile was a fast low level run, pulling up to the vertical over
teh notional launch pad. THese conditions were typically 500-530 Kts at
1,000'pulling 3.5 - 3.6 G for a nominal Jigh Energy Abort Motor, and
400 Kts/1,000' pulling 4.5G for a Low Energy Abort Motor simulation.
This would intercept the expected conditions for the X-20's abort
motor burnout at, about 400 Kts/9.500' (High Energy rocket motor), or
325 Kts/5,000' (low energy motor. The F5D was "dirtied up", extending
the speedbrakes and gear. and opening the AB nozzle to reduce idle
thrust, at the top of the climb. (190 Kts/15,000', High Energy case,
155 Kts/8,000' Low Energy case). A no-power added landing approach
was flown to a position on the Edwards Lakebed corresponding to teh
location of the Skid Strip at Cape Canaveral.
(Who says test flying is stoogig about taking data points!) For some
of the flights, teh windshield and canopy of the airplane was
restricted to duplicate the fields of view from teh X-20 cockpit.
This was done by applying a transparent yellow film to the canopy, and
using a blue-tinted visor on the pilot's helmet. (That way, if full
vision was needed, you just had to flip up the visor).

The whole thing was written up in NASA Technical Memorandum
NASA-TM-X-637, "Flight Simulated Off-the-Pad Escape and Landing
Maneuvers for a Vertically Launched Hypersonic Glider",
Gene J. Matrange, William H. Dana, and Neil A. Armstrong,
March 1962
Not currently available on-line, but the entire Tech Memorandum has
been duplicated in
"Dyna-Soar", Robert Godwin, Compiler & Editor,
Apogee Books, Burlington, Ontario, Canada, 2003, ISBN 1-896522-95-5

(Note to LaDonna, et alia: That's what a reference and attribution
looks like)

I've been "flying" similar profiles (In the Mighty Wurlitzer) for
David Sander's Saturn Shuttle as defined in _Man_Conquers_Space_.
It's tone of fun.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
  #98  
Old June 14th 04, 09:51 PM
LaDonna Wyss
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Scottso wrote in message . ..

It's interesting to note that it seems that Armstrong was simply destined to
get into space one way or another. (MISS candidate, X-15 pilot, X-20
candidate, NASA Group II.)

The word "destined" implies that a "higher power" is pulling the
strings....It just ain't true, gents.though OM was "destined" to be a
turd breath


I'm afraid to ask who is impersonating me this time, although I have a
pretty good idea. If I am correct, I will be having a long chat with
someone named "Mark", but it won't be Mark Wade.
LaDonna
  #99  
Old June 14th 04, 10:15 PM
Andrew Gray
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On 2004-06-14, LaDonna Wyss wrote:

In fact, I have a cute piece of information for you: Did you know
that, according to St. Louis Military Personnel records, the Air Force
never heard of Gus Grissom or Ed White, and the Navy never heard of
Roger Chaffee?

(...)
Missile Crisis. I've tried the Pentagon, Air Force and Navy
headquarters in Washington, and the aforementioned personnel office
(and yes, I sent them everything but social security numbers and
fingerprints; there is NO excuse for them having "no record" of Gus,
Ed, and Roger.)


Yes there is. See, you're actually talking about Virgil Ivan Grissom
(neat name, huh?) -
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/grissom-vi.html (to put in an
analogy - I could find my grandfather's service records under Robert,
but not under Bob... but I never knew anyone call him Robert)

The little problem of you looking under the wrong name aside, you may
need to give them more information.

http://www.archives.gov/facilities/mo/st_louis/
military_personnel_records/standard_form_180.html

If you didn't include a service number, then you will probably need to
include a SSN. Not that they're hard to find, mind - five minutes with
public databases (most of that time spent finding the damned link) gives
me 308-20-4281 for Grissom, 577-40-8481 for White, although I can't seem
to find one for Chaffee. Anyway, two of three for you to play with.

[There's also the possibility of a misfiling when they transferred -
speaking as a suit-wearing cause of human error, never underestimate the
ability of a bureaucracy to lose files - which may have led to the file
being transferred at some point to civilian records and not coming back.
The NASA/USM confusion may well have been extant in the 1960s.]

--
-Andrew Gray

  #100  
Old June 14th 04, 10:24 PM
Scott Hedrick
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"LaDonna Wyss" wrote in message
om...
I'm afraid to ask who is impersonating me this time


Whoever it is, they have the same difficult grasp of reality that you do.

If I am correct, I will be having a long chat with
someone named "Mark", but it won't be Mark Wade.


Much to his relief.


 




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