canals on mars, can the martians be far behind?

Tom McDonald wrote:
On 8/20/2011 12:51 PM, dfarr --at-- comcast --dot-- net wrote:
I grant your point re photography.

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast121/lectures/lec12.html has some
drawings and pictures.

But the photographs didn't arouse suspicion in anyone to refute the
earlier drawings

Is anyone making better pictures today than they could make in the
60s? (from Earth)

From just above the Earth:

http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/arc...01/24/image/a/

And from the surface of the Earth:

http://marswatch.astro.cornell.edu/m...oundbased.html

True, and neither sort of image shows "canals".

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

I'm just trying to start a fire with this post. Since moving out to
the country I've gotten better at my knowledge of naked-eye astronomy,
and after years of trying (there are too many damn trees on the
horizon in my area) I finally saw Mercury for the first time this
spring. I'm a math type but fascinated by how much the ancients were
able to get right about the Solar System. I'd love to know if dolphins
know any astronomy, or elephants.

I may get a telescope someday but it seems like I do not have the time
or money to invest to ever get something that I would consider
adequate.

So my best shot is to try to build a fire under someone who HAS a
telescope (or a pro astronomer) to push the envelope of what can be
seen on the surface of Mars from on Earth or in Earth orbit. The
hubble picture was a real disappointment, but they probably didn't
spend too much time on it?

My position on Mars, as you can probably tell, is that humans have no
business going there for at least the next hundred years, and that
billions of dollars and lots of dead heroes are going to be spent on
this folly of human colonization. I think they should send a rabbit to
Mars orbit and back successfully (or something with a lifespan
commensurate...) and then land one on Mars and return it. Then do it a
few more times. Then forget about the whole thing.

"dfarr --at-- comcast --dot-- net" wrote in message
...
| I'm just trying to start a fire with this post. Since moving out to
| the country I've gotten better at my knowledge of naked-eye astronomy,
| and after years of trying (there are too many damn trees on the
| horizon in my area) I finally saw Mercury for the first time this
| spring. I'm a math type but fascinated by how much the ancients were
| able to get right about the Solar System.

Those ancients were not bothered by street lights and twilight doesn't last
as long near the equator. The Acropolis was built on top of a hill, not too
many trees there.
http://www.greece-athens.com/gallery_images/56.jpg
The Egyptians built pyramids to see over the tree tops.

dfarr --at-- comcast --dot-- net wrote:
I'm just trying to start a fire with this post. Since moving out to
the country I've gotten better at my knowledge of naked-eye astronomy,
and after years of trying (there are too many damn trees on the
horizon in my area) I finally saw Mercury for the first time this
spring. I'm a math type but fascinated by how much the ancients were
able to get right about the Solar System. I'd love to know if dolphins
know any astronomy, or elephants.

Dolphins, unlikely. Elephants, probably, but how would you go about asking?


I may get a telescope someday but it seems like I do not have the time
or money to invest to ever get something that I would consider
adequate.

So my best shot is to try to build a fire under someone who HAS a
telescope (or a pro astronomer) to push the envelope of what can be
seen on the surface of Mars from on Earth or in Earth orbit. The
hubble picture was a real disappointment, but they probably didn't
spend too much time on it?

There have been many Hubble images of Mars, and I don't see why you think
they are a disappointment. Were you expecting something other than the
reality?

And Mars has been surveyed extensively by orbiting spacecraft. What is
disappointing about that?

Or maybe you expected Mars orbiter photo quality from Hubble.


My position on Mars, as you can probably tell, is that humans have no
business going there for at least the next hundred years, and that
billions of dollars and lots of dead heroes are going to be spent on
this folly of human colonization. I think they should send a rabbit to
Mars orbit and back successfully (or something with a lifespan
commensurate...) and then land one on Mars and return it. Then do it a
few more times. Then forget about the whole thing.

Send two rabbits (one male, one female) and hundreds will return....be sure
to send lots of lettuce and rabbit food.

One justification for sending humans is that they can do measurements and
exploration that machines cannot. No such argument holds for rabbits.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

On Aug 23, 6:10*am, "Mike Dworetsky"
wrote:
dfarr --at-- comcast --dot-- net wrote:

I'm just trying to start a fire with this post. Since moving out to
the country I've gotten better at my knowledge of naked-eye astronomy,
and after years of trying (there are too many damn trees on the
horizon in my area) I finally saw Mercury for the first time this
spring. I'm a math type but fascinated by how much the ancients were
able to get right about the Solar System. I'd love to know if dolphins
know any astronomy, or elephants.

Dolphins, unlikely. *Elephants, probably, but how would you go about asking?



I may get a telescope someday but it seems like I do not have the time
or money to invest to ever get something that I would consider
adequate.

So my best shot is to try to build a fire under someone who HAS a
telescope (or a pro astronomer) to push the envelope of what can be
seen on the surface of Mars from on Earth or in Earth orbit. The
hubble picture was a real disappointment, but they probably didn't
spend too much time on it?

There have been many Hubble images of Mars, and I don't see why you think
they are a disappointment. *Were you expecting something other than the
reality?

And Mars has been surveyed extensively by orbiting spacecraft. *What is
disappointing about that?

Or maybe you expected Mars orbiter photo quality from Hubble.



My position on Mars, as you can probably tell, is that humans have no
business going there for at least the next hundred years, and that
billions of dollars and lots of dead heroes are going to be spent on
this folly of human colonization. I think they should send a rabbit to
Mars orbit and back successfully (or something with a lifespan
commensurate...) and then land one on Mars and return it. Then do it a
few more times. Then forget about the whole thing.

Send two rabbits (one male, one female) and hundreds will return....be sure
to send lots of lettuce and rabbit food.

One justification for sending humans is that they can do measurements and
exploration that machines cannot. *No such argument holds for rabbits.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

Good points, Mike. I've since seen better terrestrial amateur pictures
of Mars than the Hubble link someone posted in this thread. So I'm
sure there are some spectacular Hubble shots around.

We seem to be getting plenty of data back from Mars, without sending
any humans. The machines on Mars are not polluting or intentionally
destroying any Martian habitat or Martians.

The humans that get sent have to be alive to collect much data. 50% of
astronauts have developed cataracts from cosmic rays, the ones that
whiz through their eyes, not counting the ones that whiz through the
rest of their bodies. None of these astronauts so far has had to
endure years outside of the magnetosphere. Also, 4-5 years in a tin
can is pretty brutal, even if you have internet. Especially if you are
blind.

Rent or buy the Werner Herzog documentary about Antarctica to see the
massive garbage dump at McMurdo Sound. I saw it personally in the 70s
and I'm sure it has gotten a lot bigger. Or see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMurdo...s_human_impact.
We could do the same thing to Mars.

Also check out the race to the South Pole, or Mt Everest. Lots of dead
heroes because they tried to get there before the technology was
ready. Crawl before you walk, NASA. Get the rabbits back (just send
one at a time) reliably, then check them for cancer or aliens, let
them mate when they get back, then think about sending humans if
everything works out OK. But not before you build and stock a habitat
up there. Preferably deep underground where the atmospheric pressure
and temperature, and radiation level, is like ours, and where the real
Martians MIGHT be found.

On a sunny day (Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:24:53 -0700 (PDT)) it happened dfarr
--at-- comcast --dot-- net wrote in
:

Also check out the race to the South Pole, or Mt Everest. Lots of dead
heroes because they tried to get there before the technology was
ready. Crawl before you walk, NASA. Get the rabbits back (just send
one at a time) reliably, then check them for cancer or aliens, let
them mate when they get back, then think about sending humans if
everything works out OK. But not before you build and stock a habitat
up there. Preferably deep underground where the atmospheric pressure
and temperature, and radiation level, is like ours, and where the real
Martians MIGHT be found.


So, let me get this strait:
Columbus should have send some apes first to see if they survived?
You are *an idiot*,

If Columbus had done that there would have been one idiot less OK.
Your bull**** about astronuts goes even further, how old is Armstrong?
Is he still alive?
We have the technology, but not the political will to land on mars NOW.
NASA is just toying because all the real engineers were fired by the
same politicians that hired them to beat Russia to the moon.
Mars is merely an 30 years ago solved engineering problem,
Von Braun had it all worked out, for a cost that was a fraction
of what has been spend on space station fubar.

Hopefully the Chinese will get ready to land on mars first,
and maybe, if there is still a US (united states) left, then it will try to compete again.
But no Von Braun who knew his stuff available, so the Chinese (or maybe even Russia)
will land on mars first.
Then it will truly be the 'red planet'.
All that while you play with model airplanes in the backyard,
maybe even with a mouse in it, beeep beep.