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NASA declines to protect the Planet Earth



 
 
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  #531  
Old August 23rd 06, 12:44 AM posted to sci.environment,sci.space.policy,sci.physics
pete[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 104
Default NASA declines to protect the Planet Earth

In sci.space.policy, on Mon, 21 Aug 06 10:10:37 GMT, sez:
` In article ,
`
(pete) wrote:
` In sci.space.policy, on Mon, 14 Aug 06 09:58:53 GMT,
sez:
`
` [last post in an interesting subthread on breadmaking in space]

` Yea. I forgot to remember the thread when I made some Tuesday.
` My method is to "watch" how I do stuff while trying to put it
` into the context of the thought experiment. I should have
` been paying attention when I was wrestling with the dough.
` And mixing would be interesting.

`
` Missed this discussion, vacationing.

` Yea. That's why we didn't care to go on vacation from work;
` we might miss something.

` There is a confluence of
` issues here to do with the many requirements for space food,
` which seem to me to include
`
` - compact storage
` - ease of preparation

` But do you want it "easy"? Remember this is a boring trip. I
` would think that cooking would be one of the few useful tasks
` that would allieviate boredom.

` - minimum mass (I don't think much can be done here with the food
` itself, as there is a minimum requirement, and when you include
` the water content, that's hard to reduce, but you can potentially
` do things to reduce the mass of the preparation equipment)
` - palatability
` - variety
` - nutritional content - this includes the well known obvious items
` like protein, fat, carbs, fibre, vitamins, minerals, and EFAs,
` but also less obvious things like enzymes and similar beneficial
` chemicals present in fresh foods

` And the unknowns. How do you provide the unknowns in the recipes
` if you don't know they are needed?

`
` What occurs to me as being a great food resource for meeting many
` of these requirements is seed used for sprouting. Sprouts have
` _much_ higher food value than the originating seeds, but are far
` simpler to generate than full blown hydroponic farmed plants -
` just add water and wait a couple of days. For extra benefit,
` expose to sunlight for a day before consumption. Sprouted grains can
` be blended and used for making bread. I don't know if this is now
` common in every market, but locally here, if you read the ingredients
` on about a third of the "healthier" (ie I'm not talking about
` wonderbread) loaves on the store shelves, you will find "contains
` no flour, made from 100% sprouted grains", and these loaves look
` and taste pretty much similar to regular wholegrain breads, except
` perhaps more flavourful. Seeds are obviously compact, dehydrated,
` well suited for cargo - they are more resistant to spoilage than
` prepared flour, unless the flour has been depleted of valuable
` nutrients.
`
` A wide variety of seeds - grains, legumes, pulses - and a wide
` variety of seed and sprout preparation techniques, from bread to
` chow mein to salad to soups and stews, provides a potential for
` great variety in meals, all with relatively simple preparation
` requirements. Sure it's more involved than putting the pack of
` frozen entree in the microwave, but it's not something requiring
` exotic hardware, either. Nor would I try to suggest that it would
` be the sole food source; a major component, though.

` An example that testing and refining over billions of years
` should produce more efficiency.

` YOu can't have any bugs or rats on the ship. How difficult
` would that be? If you irradiate the seed to kill any future
` meat residing in the seed, will it sprout?

I'm not sure, but I suspect not. After all, you are trying to kill
single bacterial cells, so what chance does a single plant-germ
cell have? Note, however, regarding bugs of the larger variety,
that back in the age of sail, it was expected on long sea voyages
that the biscuits carried along would get maggots - that elevated
the nutrient value far beyond the basic white flour content.

I think, however, that the issue of keeping seed dry and safe from
pests is pretty well solved for periods in the order of one or two
years, otherwise where would next year's crop seed come from. Longer
times might require more clever tricks, but I know that some of those
already exist, such as flooding silos with CO2 or something similar,
which asphixiates bugs without leaving any toxic residuals.


--
================================================== ========================
Pete Vincent
Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.
  #532  
Old August 27th 06, 01:31 PM posted to sci.environment,sci.space.policy,sci.physics
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 135
Default NASA declines to protect the Planet Earth

In article ,
(pete) wrote:

[I don't like your choice of prefix character; it makes things
difficult to read]

In sci.space.policy, on Mon, 21 Aug 06 10:10:37 GMT,
sez:
` In article ,
`
(pete) wrote:
` In sci.space.policy, on Mon, 14 Aug 06 09:58:53 GMT,

sez:
`
` [last post in an interesting subthread on breadmaking in space]


snip--I may have ****ed it up

` What occurs to me as being a great food resource for meeting many
` of these requirements is seed used for sprouting. Sprouts have
` _much_ higher food value than the originating seeds, but are far
` simpler to generate than full blown hydroponic farmed plants -
` just add water and wait a couple of days. For extra benefit,
` expose to sunlight for a day before consumption. Sprouted grains can
` be blended and used for making bread. I don't know if this is now
` common in every market, but locally here, if you read the ingredients
` on about a third of the "healthier" (ie I'm not talking about
` wonderbread) loaves on the store shelves, you will find "contains
` no flour, made from 100% sprouted grains", and these loaves look
` and taste pretty much similar to regular wholegrain breads, except
` perhaps more flavourful. Seeds are obviously compact, dehydrated,
` well suited for cargo - they are more resistant to spoilage than
` prepared flour, unless the flour has been depleted of valuable
` nutrients.
`
` A wide variety of seeds - grains, legumes, pulses - and a wide
` variety of seed and sprout preparation techniques, from bread to
` chow mein to salad to soups and stews, provides a potential for
` great variety in meals, all with relatively simple preparation
` requirements. Sure it's more involved than putting the pack of
` frozen entree in the microwave, but it's not something requiring
` exotic hardware, either. Nor would I try to suggest that it would
` be the sole food source; a major component, though.

` An example that testing and refining over billions of years
` should produce more efficiency.

` YOu can't have any bugs or rats on the ship. How difficult
` would that be? If you irradiate the seed to kill any future
` meat residing in the seed, will it sprout?

I'm not sure, but I suspect not. After all, you are trying to kill
single bacterial cells, so what chance does a single plant-germ
cell have?


I've been intending to test this.

Note, however, regarding bugs of the larger variety,
that back in the age of sail, it was expected on long sea voyages
that the biscuits carried along would get maggots - that elevated
the nutrient value far beyond the basic white flour content.


But that only worked because the ship knew it could resupply.
The biscuits were designed to be food for the maggots. The fact
that the meat was eaten while packaged by a biscuit just made
it a [there a word for this..it's Irish or Scottish...and I want
to say] patsy. I know this is not the right word...butfry, butty?


I think, however, that the issue of keeping seed dry and safe from
pests is pretty well solved for periods in the order of one or two
years, otherwise where would next year's crop seed come from. Longer
times might require more clever tricks, but I know that some of those
already exist, such as flooding silos with CO2 or something similar,
which asphixiates bugs without leaving any toxic residuals.


I don't see how flooding silos with anything would work. They're
packed. I sure wouldn't want to work near one that was loaded
with CO_2. I suspect the CO_2 is to try to prevent combustion not
kill bugs. hmm...would it prevent combustion? I didn't know you
could make an airtight silo.

/BAH

  #533  
Old August 29th 06, 04:13 AM posted to sci.environment,sci.space.policy,sci.physics
pete[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 104
Default NASA declines to protect the Planet Earth

In sci.space.policy, on Sun, 27 Aug 06 12:31:38 GMT, sez:

` In article ,
`
(pete) wrote:

` [I don't like your choice of prefix character; it makes things
` difficult to read]

Sorry. I've been thinking lately I should try going back to the
standard character and see if it's still a problem - I had to change
it cuz UBC installed a line counter that would reject posts with
more quoted than original material. I wonder whether that's still
in place. Seemed sort of excessive to me. I could see if it choked
on 95% quoted material, but 50% ?

` In sci.space.policy, on Mon, 21 Aug 06 10:10:37 GMT,

sez:
` ` In article ,
` `
(pete) wrote:
` ` In sci.space.policy, on Mon, 14 Aug 06 09:58:53 GMT,

` sez:
` `
` ` [last post in an interesting subthread on breadmaking in space]

` snip--I may have ****ed it up

` ` What occurs to me as being a great food resource for meeting many
` ` of these requirements is seed used for sprouting. Sprouts have
` ` _much_ higher food value than the originating seeds, but are far
` ` simpler to generate than full blown hydroponic farmed plants -
` ` just add water and wait a couple of days. For extra benefit,
` ` expose to sunlight for a day before consumption. Sprouted grains can
` ` be blended and used for making bread. I don't know if this is now
` ` common in every market, but locally here, if you read the
ingredients
` ` on about a third of the "healthier" (ie I'm not talking about
` ` wonderbread) loaves on the store shelves, you will find "contains
` ` no flour, made from 100% sprouted grains", and these loaves look
` ` and taste pretty much similar to regular wholegrain breads, except
` ` perhaps more flavourful. Seeds are obviously compact, dehydrated,
` ` well suited for cargo - they are more resistant to spoilage than
` ` prepared flour, unless the flour has been depleted of valuable
` ` nutrients.
` `
` ` A wide variety of seeds - grains, legumes, pulses - and a wide
` ` variety of seed and sprout preparation techniques, from bread to
` ` chow mein to salad to soups and stews, provides a potential for
` ` great variety in meals, all with relatively simple preparation
` ` requirements. Sure it's more involved than putting the pack of
` ` frozen entree in the microwave, but it's not something requiring
` ` exotic hardware, either. Nor would I try to suggest that it would
` ` be the sole food source; a major component, though.
`
` ` An example that testing and refining over billions of years
` ` should produce more efficiency.
`
` ` YOu can't have any bugs or rats on the ship. How difficult
` ` would that be? If you irradiate the seed to kill any future
` ` meat residing in the seed, will it sprout?
`
` I'm not sure, but I suspect not. After all, you are trying to kill
` single bacterial cells, so what chance does a single plant-germ
` cell have?

` I've been intending to test this.

` Note, however, regarding bugs of the larger variety,
` that back in the age of sail, it was expected on long sea voyages
` that the biscuits carried along would get maggots - that elevated
` the nutrient value far beyond the basic white flour content.

` But that only worked because the ship knew it could resupply.
` The biscuits were designed to be food for the maggots. The fact
` that the meat was eaten while packaged by a biscuit just made
` it a [there a word for this..it's Irish or Scottish...and I want
` to say] patsy. I know this is not the right word...butfry, butty?

Pasty, I'm guessing, as in cornish...

` I think, however, that the issue of keeping seed dry and safe from
` pests is pretty well solved for periods in the order of one or two
` years, otherwise where would next year's crop seed come from. Longer
` times might require more clever tricks, but I know that some of those
` already exist, such as flooding silos with CO2 or something similar,
` which asphixiates bugs without leaving any toxic residuals.

` I don't see how flooding silos with anything would work. They're
` packed. I sure wouldn't want to work near one that was loaded
` with CO_2. I suspect the CO_2 is to try to prevent combustion not
` kill bugs. hmm...would it prevent combustion? I didn't know you
` could make an airtight silo.

It doesn't have to be absolutely airtight, I think. Use a heavier
than air gas, and have the bottom and sides mostly leakproof.
It is a bit of a hazard, now and then they lose somebody who goes
into the silo without the SCBA gear. Also, it doesn't have to
remain flooded with asphixiant. If you do have a sealed container,
you can pump the asphyxiant in and out. Once you've killed off
any pests, you should be able to store the seed viable for several
years, in air, as long as you keep it dark and dry, and don't let
any new bugs get at it.

--
================================================== ========================
Pete Vincent
Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.
  #534  
Old August 29th 06, 12:51 PM posted to sci.environment,sci.space.policy,sci.physics
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 135
Default NASA declines to protect the Planet Earth

In article ,
(pete) wrote:
In sci.space.policy, on Sun, 27 Aug 06 12:31:38 GMT,
sez:

` In article ,
`
(pete) wrote:

` [I don't like your choice of prefix character; it makes things
` difficult to read]

Sorry. I've been thinking lately I should try going back to the
standard character and see if it's still a problem - I had to change
it cuz UBC installed a line counter that would reject posts with
more quoted than original material. I wonder whether that's still
in place. Seemed sort of excessive to me. I could see if it choked
on 95% quoted material, but 50% ?


Oh, good grief. Excuse me. I've a summer's full of abject
stupidity. Yea, I've heard about those programs. There are
days when 99% is necessary..as in contracts and signing a
purchase, etc. This is just plain utter stupid.

Forget my request. I'll learn to read to skip the new character
pattern....although...a | may be easier. I would suspect that a `
character has a meaning that you do not intend. It used to be
a special action character.

I also understand why this code was written; it's another example
of where the sins of the few are atoned by the many.


` In sci.space.policy, on Mon, 21 Aug 06 10:10:37 GMT,

sez:
` ` In article ,
` `
(pete) wrote:
` ` In sci.space.policy, on Mon, 14 Aug 06 09:58:53 GMT,

` sez:
` `
` ` [last post in an interesting subthread on breadmaking in space]

` snip--I may have ****ed it up

` ` What occurs to me as being a great food resource for meeting many
` ` of these requirements is seed used for sprouting. Sprouts have
` ` _much_ higher food value than the originating seeds, but are far
` ` simpler to generate than full blown hydroponic farmed plants -
` ` just add water and wait a couple of days. For extra benefit,
` ` expose to sunlight for a day before consumption. Sprouted grains can
` ` be blended and used for making bread. I don't know if this is now
` ` common in every market, but locally here, if you read the
ingredients
` ` on about a third of the "healthier" (ie I'm not talking about
` ` wonderbread) loaves on the store shelves, you will find "contains
` ` no flour, made from 100% sprouted grains", and these loaves look
` ` and taste pretty much similar to regular wholegrain breads, except
` ` perhaps more flavourful. Seeds are obviously compact, dehydrated,
` ` well suited for cargo - they are more resistant to spoilage than
` ` prepared flour, unless the flour has been depleted of valuable
` ` nutrients.
` `
` ` A wide variety of seeds - grains, legumes, pulses - and a wide
` ` variety of seed and sprout preparation techniques, from bread to
` ` chow mein to salad to soups and stews, provides a potential for
` ` great variety in meals, all with relatively simple preparation
` ` requirements. Sure it's more involved than putting the pack of
` ` frozen entree in the microwave, but it's not something requiring
` ` exotic hardware, either. Nor would I try to suggest that it would
` ` be the sole food source; a major component, though.
`
` ` An example that testing and refining over billions of years
` ` should produce more efficiency.
`
` ` YOu can't have any bugs or rats on the ship. How difficult
` ` would that be? If you irradiate the seed to kill any future
` ` meat residing in the seed, will it sprout?
`
` I'm not sure, but I suspect not. After all, you are trying to kill
` single bacterial cells, so what chance does a single plant-germ
` cell have?

` I've been intending to test this.

` Note, however, regarding bugs of the larger variety,
` that back in the age of sail, it was expected on long sea voyages
` that the biscuits carried along would get maggots - that elevated
` the nutrient value far beyond the basic white flour content.

` But that only worked because the ship knew it could resupply.
` The biscuits were designed to be food for the maggots. The fact
` that the meat was eaten while packaged by a biscuit just made
` it a [there a word for this..it's Irish or Scottish...and I want
` to say] patsy. I know this is not the right word...butfry, butty?

Pasty, I'm guessing, as in cornish...


That's it!!!! Thank you :-). I wrote that but decided it was
wrong becuase it would strip joint apparrel to drift out of the
post :-). Now I can't remember what those thingies are called.

` I think, however, that the issue of keeping seed dry and safe from
` pests is pretty well solved for periods in the order of one or two
` years, otherwise where would next year's crop seed come from. Longer
` times might require more clever tricks, but I know that some of those
` already exist, such as flooding silos with CO2 or something similar,
` which asphixiates bugs without leaving any toxic residuals.

` I don't see how flooding silos with anything would work. They're
` packed. I sure wouldn't want to work near one that was loaded
` with CO_2. I suspect the CO_2 is to try to prevent combustion not
` kill bugs. hmm...would it prevent combustion? I didn't know you
` could make an airtight silo.

It doesn't have to be absolutely airtight, I think. Use a heavier
than air gas, and have the bottom and sides mostly leakproof.
It is a bit of a hazard, now and then they lose somebody who goes
into the silo without the SCBA gear.


Forget about the people. I was thinking about livestock and other
valuable animals.

Also, it doesn't have to
remain flooded with asphixiant. If you do have a sealed container,
you can pump the asphyxiant in and out. Once you've killed off
any pests, you should be able to store the seed viable for several
years, in air, as long as you keep it dark and dry, and don't let
any new bugs get at it.


I read or saw somewhere that keeping pesky insects out of the
wheat stores was a major problem. The right way was to
introduce other insects that loved to eat the pests but not
the wheat. USDA (I think) wouldn't allow that. I always
thought this was nixed by somebody who was a city slicker
where eating something that had bugs in it was unappetizing.

/BAH

 




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