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  #11  
Old April 29th 17, 01:03 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Alain Fournier wrote:

On Apr/29/2017 at 3:37 AM, Fred J. McCall wrote :
JF Mezei wrote:



We know what rovers were designed to find, and of those capabilities
what was and wasn't found. But we can't know about stuff the rovers were
not designed to detect.


And we don't really have to care. Meteorites from Mars have made it
here. We aren't all dead, so it's a virtual certainty that any
Martian microbes that might exist die under Earth conditions.


No it isn't. If there are some microbes travelling from Mars to Earth
they don't necessarily die under Earth conditions. What we can say
is that, if they do travel, they don't wreak havoc on Earth, for some
definition of 'wreak havoc'. It is possible that current conditions
on Earth are the outcome from havoc wreaked by Martian microbes.


Well, pretty much all God's chillens got common DNA, so it's unlikely
that anything from a separate evolutionary chain has made it here and
survived to have an impact. Regardless, if it did, then it's
obviously nothing for us to worry about anyway. And we're talking
about fears (by some) of CURRENTLY EXTANT Martian bacteria.

That stuff, given the environment on Mars for the last several billion
years, is likely to be radiation tolerant and oxygen intolerant.


--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
live in the real world."
-- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden
  #14  
Old April 30th 17, 04:10 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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JF Mezei wrote:

On 2017-04-29 03:37, Fred J. McCall wrote:

One the basis of even a rudimentary understanding of biology.


Has it ever occured to you that our understanding of "biology" is based
on how life exists on Earth's conditions?


Has it ever occurred to you that extremophile conditions don't create
magic?


What if there is totally different type of life which can exists on Mars
conditions? How can you declare that it could not have any impact with
our biology?


What if a herd of unicorns come through and **** magic pixie dust all
over everything? How can you think anything adapted to Martian
conditions with no common biology and no evolution against anything
remotely like a human host could possibly affect our biology?


And if your immune system doesn't detect this thing that is eating your
body, it won't fight it.


Without a billion years or so of coevolution, why would this magic
'thing' of yours ever develop the ability to be "eating your body"?


Just because the odds are low doesn't mean you can categorically state
they don't exist.


How close to zero do they have to be before you agree there is no
essential difference between them and zero?


Odds are low, yet whenever we launch probes, we still make damned sure
the probes are as sterile as we can make them.


That's because we don't want to contaminate our tests at the other
end, you nitwit.



how do you think a microbe with no common heredity with us is going to
"cause havok"? Magic, perhaps?


If your body does not consider it to be a microbe, that entity can do
whatever it wants without detection. Or perhaps the body does detect it,
but white globules are food to that entity instead of poison and makes
it grow even faster.


Microbes don't 'want' to do things. They do things their evolution
has programmed them to do. What Martian host is similar enough to an
Earth human for a Martian bacteria to develop the ability to infect
it?


The rules of physics may be common across planets, but that doesn't mean
that all organisms have to be made form same components and behave the
same way.


So if it's made from different components, why the hell would it
'infect' carbon based life? Makes no sense.



Think about the conditions on Mars
for the last several billion years and the direction that that will
drive any life and then ask yourself if that stuff could survive under
Earth conditions or could somehow infect Earth life. The answer is
that it almost certainly could not.


Or the reverse: it exists on Mars, but if brought to Earth, without
adverse conditions will multiply at accelerated rate.


So magic, then.


You can't make statements that stuff we don't know about is perfectly
safe to humans (or planet earth).


So we can only ever send one way toasters, since we will never be
omniscient and therefore there will always be stuff "we don't know
about".

Look, biology (of whatever extremes) follows similar rules. Biology
isn't just "reach into your ass and pull out an answer that appeals to
you". Life evolves to create energy and reproduce in whatever
conditions it evolves in. Think about what that means for any
potential 'Martian microbes'. Now stick those things in an Earth
environment. How well do you think they're going to do and why would
you ever think they could 'infect' an Earth animal?


Consider Zebra Muscles. Wrecking water systems for towns in great
lakes/St-Lawrence river. Brought in by ships form sea and they spread
rapidly in freshwater and block water intakes, cover ship hulls (slowing
them considerably etc).


You're comparing apples and, well, zebra mussels and drawing
conclusions based on your ignorance about zebra mussels. Your claims
about how they have been spread are incorrect. Please provide a
citation for your claim that they "cover ship hulls (slowing them
considerably)".


You'd think a species designed for salt water would have died in fresh
water instead of multiplying rapidly.


The Zebra Mussel (note spelling of 'mussel') is a freshwater species
of mussel, you twit. It lives in lakes, river estuaries, and canal
systems. They spread to North America from Russian ships that picked
them up in their ballast systems from their native range and
discharged them into the Great Lakes.

It is small surprise that a species designed for fresh water
flourishes in fresh water.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
  #15  
Old April 30th 17, 04:45 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 10,018
Default L.I.F.E.

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2017-04-29 08:03, Fred J. McCall wrote:

Well, pretty much all God's chillens got common DNA,


We know that lawyers and rats have common DNA, and that humans share
huge amount of DNA with other mammals.

But what about insects?


Over 60% shared (identical) DNA and it all IS DNA with the same sorts
of chemicals involved.


What about those bacteria which live in
volcanic sulfur outflows at bottom of ocean?


Hell, we have 50% identical DNA with BANANAS. And again, it all IS
DNA. It's all made out of the same four nucleobases: cytosine,
guanine, adenine, and thymine. It doesn't matter what it is. If it's
alive it has DNA and that DNA is made out of the same four things
across all Earth life, regardless of how much identical DNA there
might be.



about fears (by some) of CURRENTLY EXTANT Martian bacteria.


Consider seeds. They can lay dormant for years, and add water and you
get them to grow. Have you consider that there could be a similar type
of situation on Mars ?


Yes, consider seeds. They evolved under the same conditions, have
identically the same four nucleobases making up their DNA as all other
life here, etc. None of that is going to be true for 'Mars microbes'
unless you think they can 'lay dormant' for three billion years or so.



That stuff, given the environment on Mars for the last several billion
years, is likely to be radiation tolerant and oxygen intolerant.


Pure speculation on your part. You can't draw conclusions about stuff
you haven't discovered yet. (or which may or may not exist).


The world must be so MAGICAL for you. I prefer to use science,
thanks. Drawing conclusions about stuff you haven't discovered yet is
what science does and how it works. Magic, on the other hand, can't
draw a conclusion about anything, ever, because, well, MAGIC.


Mars is more than likely sterile and offer zero problems. But "likely"
doesn't mean you can claim there is no risk.


For a 'more than likely' value consisting of a very large number of
nines.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #16  
Old April 30th 17, 08:44 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 10,018
Default L.I.F.E.

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2017-04-29 23:10, Fred J. McCall wrote:

What if a herd of unicorns come through and **** magic pixie dust all
over everything? How can you think anything adapted to Martian
conditions with no common biology and no evolution against anything
remotely like a human host could possibly affect our biology?


So a "thing" on Mars has evolved without salt. If it hasnt been exposed
to salt, nobody knows what happens if it is.


Of course we do. It won't do anything with salt, since there isn't
any in its environment. So at worst it will ignore salt.


Say this "thing" gets into your blood, finds out that it loves salt and
start to metabolize any/all salt it can find and grows much faster.


By what mechanism would it have come to 'love salt', since there isn't
any in the environment it evolved in? You've been watching too much
bad science fiction.


Say this thing is a "reverse plant" when it eats O2 and Carbon and
throws out CO2. It would go nuts in our forests and turn Earth into Mars
by converting all plant life to CO2.


Why would something like that develop in an environment with
practically no free oxygen? Are you starting to see a trend here?
Organisms don't develop metabolisms to use things that are not in
their environment. You might as well postulate "What if we find
unicorns that **** magic dust?"

Besides, in case you weren't aware, WE are 'reverse plants', as are
pretty much most animals above the unicellular level.


I know this is mostly "fantasy".


'Most'? You're the master of understatement. It is ALL fantasy and
not even good fantasy.


But you are the one claiming there is
absolutely no risk without being able to prove it.


While you are the one claiming biology is not a science but rather is
'magical' and critters with magical uses for things that don't exist
in the environment they evolved in will somehow (magically) evolve.


There is evidence Mars usedto be very different. It is possible that
some form of life was created and managed to evolve as fast as Mars
morphed into its current state. (or lays dormant somewhere).


Nothing is going to 'lie dormant' for several billion years. Again,
there is no magic.


So the risk is different from the moon which never had atmosphere or
tempered weather.


Why? You're postulating PFM on Mars. Why not on the Moon?


--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
  #17  
Old May 2nd 17, 01:47 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 10,018
Default L.I.F.E.

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2017-04-30 03:44, Fred J. McCall wrote:

'Most'? You're the master of understatement. It is ALL fantasy and
not even good fantasy.


You're the one making the claim your are certain there is no risk at all.


No, I'm the one making the claim that there is so little risk that
going nuts and quarantining Mars forever because it's somehow
different than the Moon makes little sense.


I was merely providing theoretical possibilities where something we
don't know about, something we don't detect or fully understand might
behave very differently in humans or once brought back to earth.


Like I said; fantasy. If something is so 'foreign' that we can't
detect it, then it's so foreign that it won't interact with us at all.
Even extremophile bacteria here on Earth do not infect human beings.
Why do you think that is?

Hint: Evolved in environments far from those containing humans.


Just because something doesn't react with NaCl on Mars because there
isn't any doesn't mean that its chemical composition won't react to NaCl
if in contact with it.


Actually, yeah, it pretty much does.


(using salt as example, could be any component - however salt is a big
one because if some organism starts to break NaCl from ocean water in
large amounts, we might end up with acidic oceans, or pure chlorine in
atmposphere or whatever.


Uh, you realize that salt in solution is ALREADY broken up into sodium
and chlorine ions, yeah? So there's nothing to dissociate, yeah?


And even though the odds of it happening are next to nil, the potential
damage is so high that it cannot be dismissed.


Of course it can. Only a total scientific illiterate could believe
there is any threat of damage from something like this.


Or course, Mars missions have other dangers. Consider a standard cold
virus on board which mutates due to radiation, comes back to earth and
causes Sars 2. But this would be more likely detectable (since crew
would have had plenty of time to get infected and show symptoms well
before arriving at earth).


Consider ... MAGIC! That's pretty much what you're proposing here.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
  #18  
Old May 2nd 17, 08:16 PM posted to sci.space.policy
jacob navia
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Le 29/04/2017 à 14:53, Jeff Findley a écrit :
In article , says...

Le 28/04/2017 à 08:55, JF Mezei a écrit :
Mars environment makes it unlikely there is life forms as we know them.


Surface environment is very different, yes.

But underground there is abundant water, rests of volcanic activity
providing possible nutrients, pressure is higher, temperatures are
higher than the surface, and the environment could provide for numerous
life forms.


Theory and conjecture, not fact.

Jeff


Methane is unstable in the surface of Mars. Something must be producing
it, surely some joker that has hidden methane under the surface to lead
NASA into error.

The fossils formations recognized by biologists?

Hallucinations produced by smoking pot and writing scientific papers at
the same time.

Magnetite of biological purity found in mars meteorites?

Pure contamination of course.

The circadian rhythms found in Viking data?

Poppycok, as McCall loves to say.

The rock facing the Viking lander becomes more green in spring and the
spectra of the rock is similar to the spectra of lichens?

[put some stupid remark here]

NASA acknowledges that organic matter exists in the surface of mars?

[just put one sentence. No arguments of course]

Since NASA doesn't look for life, only for geology, and nobody expects
to find anything, all hints are ignored.

What is annoying is the absolute zero degree of this discussion.

"Theory and conjecture, not fact"

That's all you have to say? The peer reviewed papers? Nothing.

What is the point of discussing if you just throw sentences around
whithout any argumentation?
  #19  
Old May 3rd 17, 03:18 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
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Default L.I.F.E.

In article , says...

Le 29/04/2017 à 14:53, Jeff Findley a écrit :
In article ,
says...

Le 28/04/2017 à 08:55, JF Mezei a écrit :
Mars environment makes it unlikely there is life forms as we know them.

Surface environment is very different, yes.

But underground there is abundant water, rests of volcanic activity
providing possible nutrients, pressure is higher, temperatures are
higher than the surface, and the environment could provide for numerous
life forms.


Theory and conjecture, not fact.

Jeff


Methane is unstable in the surface of Mars. Something must be producing
it, surely some joker that has hidden methane under the surface to lead
NASA into error.


Not all chemical processes are biological.

The fossils formations recognized by biologists?


Bull****. They've found things on Mars that some scientists think look
similar to fossils on earth. But that's not definitive at all.

ravings snipped

Sure, but organic matter does not mean it came from living organisms.

Here's a cite:

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard...organic-matter

From the above article:

However, organic molecules can also be made by chemical reactions
that don't involve life, and there is not enough evidence to tell
if the matter found by the team came from ancient Martian life or
from a non-biological process. Examples of non-biological sources
include chemical reactions in water at ancient Martian hot springs
or delivery of organic material to Mars by interplanetary dust or
fragments of asteroids and comets.

Since NASA doesn't look for life, only for geology, and nobody expects
to find anything, all hints are ignored.


There are no actual conclusions to any of this. There are clues, hints,
and etc. But there are also non-biological explanations for everything
found so far. I'm not going to bother refuting them all here because
you clearly have ignored the actual results of the findings just like
the "organic molecules" article above.

What is annoying is the absolute zero degree of this discussion.


Sorry dude, no smoking gun here. Your rambling on about it like it's
been proven makes you sound like a raving nutter (my opinion, of
course).

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #20  
Old May 3rd 17, 10:38 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 10,018
Default L.I.F.E.

jacob navia wrote:

Le 29/04/2017 à 14:53, Jeff Findley a écrit :
In article , says...

Le 28/04/2017 à 08:55, JF Mezei a écrit :
Mars environment makes it unlikely there is life forms as we know them.

Surface environment is very different, yes.

But underground there is abundant water, rests of volcanic activity
providing possible nutrients, pressure is higher, temperatures are
higher than the surface, and the environment could provide for numerous
life forms.


Theory and conjecture, not fact.


Methane is unstable in the surface of Mars. Something must be producing
it, surely some joker that has hidden methane under the surface to lead
NASA into error.


There are any number of ways that methane could be detected without
something 'producing' it as we go. You should read up on this.


The fossils formations recognized by biologists?


The 'looks sort of like a microbe produced formation' recognized by
ONE biologist? No fossils.


Hallucinations produced by smoking pot and writing scientific papers at
the same time.


More like the hallucinations produced by smoking pot and reading a
scientific paper at the same time. You should stop that.


Magnetite of biological purity found in mars meteorites?


I'm not even sure what the **** this is supposed to mean. Are you
claiming that magnetite is ONLY produced by life? Really???


Pure contamination of course.


No, more like pure ignorance.


The circadian rhythms found in Viking data?

Poppycok, as McCall loves to say.


I don't particularly love to say it. I wish you'd provide fewer
opportunities where it is the only sensible response.


The rock facing the Viking lander becomes more green in spring and the
spectra of the rock is similar to the spectra of lichens?

[put some stupid remark here]


I'll leave that to you, since you already put a stupid remark in front
of it.


NASA acknowledges that organic matter exists in the surface of mars?

[just put one sentence. No arguments of course]


Cite? A description of this 'organic matter'?


Since NASA doesn't look for life, only for geology, and nobody expects
to find anything, all hints are ignored.


False.


What is annoying is the absolute zero degree of this discussion.


Perhaps you should educate yourself, then?


"Theory and conjecture, not fact"

That's all you have to say? The peer reviewed papers? Nothing.

What is the point of discussing if you just throw sentences around
whithout any argumentation?


What is the point of discussing if you just spew loony?


--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
 




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