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Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 18th 16, 09:45 PM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

Superconducting EMDrive Patented:

"Shawyer describes a new EMdrive thruster design that has a single flat
superconducting plate on one end, with a uniquely shaped, non-conducting plate
on the other.

This is necessary to minimiZe the internal Doppler shift - a change in
frequency or wavelength of a wave for an observer moving relative to its source
- and also keep manufacturing costs down.

* It enables the drive to be easily manufactured
* It will make a viable superconducting thruster easier. Shawyer believes a
superconducting thruster will produce a lot of thrust

Shawyer is working with an unnamed UK aerospace company to develop his second
generation EM Drive, which he says will produce thrust many orders of magnitude
greater than that observed by NASA’s Eagleworks team or any other laboratory."

See:

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/10...-patented.html


  #12  
Old October 19th 16, 03:50 AM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

On 10/18/2016 4:45 PM, wrote:
Shawyer is working with an unnamed UK aerospace company to develop his second
generation EM Drive, which he says will produce thrust many orders of magnitude
greater than that observed by NASA’s Eagleworks team or any other laboratory."

See:

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/10...-patented.html



Seeing is believing. Well in this case not even seeing is believing.
I've seen videos of Shawyer's work twisting away on a torsion pendulum.
That older device design is known and has been replicated. However a
compass would do the same.

I don't know how patents work in the UK, but in the US a patent requires
full disclosure and reveal of how the device works. If a patent was
granted on it in the US the construction and method of operation must be
revealed. Thus everyone is free to replicate it, no one is free to
profit from it w/o a license.

However, patents are also often issued for things that do not work.
Patent examiners are not perfect. And legally there isn't really
anything wrong with a patent on a non-working invention. It's just not
very profitable.

There's a little too much secrecy here for my liking. For now I will say
it's borderline pathological science. Borderline, but the trend is not
encouraging....

Dave



  #13  
Old October 20th 16, 04:15 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Sylvia Else
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Posts: 1,063
Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

On 19/10/2016 7:45 AM, wrote:
Superconducting EMDrive Patented:

"Shawyer describes a new EMdrive thruster design that has a single flat
superconducting plate on one end, with a uniquely shaped, non-conducting plate
on the other.

This is necessary to minimiZe the internal Doppler shift - a change in
frequency or wavelength of a wave for an observer moving relative to its source
- and also keep manufacturing costs down.

* It enables the drive to be easily manufactured
* It will make a viable superconducting thruster easier. Shawyer believes a
superconducting thruster will produce a lot of thrust

Shawyer is working with an unnamed UK aerospace company to develop his second
generation EM Drive, which he says will produce thrust many orders of magnitude
greater than that observed by NASA’s Eagleworks team or any other laboratory."

See:

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/10...-patented.html



The patent application is here

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-find-publication-getPDF.pdf?PatentNo=GB2537119&DocType=A&JournalNum ber=6647

Looks to me like a microwave photon drive, with a bunch of stuff thrown
in which may, or may not, actually improve its performance. In
particular, I'm sceptical of the super-conducting aspect given the
requirement to keep the conductors cold.

Even if it works, it is not a reaction-less drive. Photon drives are
known to he possible, but they don't produce much thrust.

The strategy of obtaining a patent on something that is real, but not
particularly effective, can be used to convince clueless investors that
they're investing in something revolutionary.

Sylvia.
  #14  
Old October 21st 16, 07:54 PM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

On 10/19/2016 11:15 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

The patent application is here

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-find-publication-getPDF.pdf?PatentNo=GB2537119&DocType=A&JournalNum ber=6647


Thanks! I'll take a closer look when I get the time.

Dave


  #15  
Old November 6th 16, 01:47 AM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

New NASA Emdrive paper shows force of 1.2 millinewtons per kilowatt in a
Vacuum and a low thrust pendulum and tests were at 40, 60 and 80 watts:

"The newest NASA emdrive paper concludes a force generation of 1.2mn/kw after errors
measurement is accounted for.

A low thrust pendulum at the NASA Johnson space center was used."

See:

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/11...-force-of.html

  #16  
Old November 6th 16, 09:36 PM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

On 11/5/2016 8:47 PM, wrote:
New NASA Emdrive paper shows force of 1.2 millinewtons per kilowatt in a
Vacuum and a low thrust pendulum and tests were at 40, 60 and 80 watts:

"The newest NASA emdrive paper concludes a force generation of 1.2mn/kw after errors
measurement is accounted for.

A low thrust pendulum at the NASA Johnson space center was used."

See:

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/11...-force-of.html


Null magnetic field present? Behavior characterized within a magnetic
field? Force direction affected by presence and orientation of magnetic
field?

The cited article, about this paper, says nothing [about that] - phrase
optional.

Dave


  #17  
Old November 6th 16, 10:12 PM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

On 11/6/2016 3:36 PM, David Spain wrote:

Null magnetic field present? Behavior characterized within a magnetic
field? Force direction affected by presence and orientation of magnetic
field?

The cited article, about this paper, says nothing [about that] - phrase
optional.

Dave



The actual link to the paper was in blue text w/o attribution. You have
to know to click on the blue text to get to the reference paper.

However once there, this looked old to me. There is no date on the paper
but the file name says 'Q-Thruster In-Vacuum Fall 2015 Test Report.pdf"
which puts it a year behind the DIY'ers over on the NasaSpaceFlight.com
forum.

Nevertheless, what I said originally stands. You know its not hard to
buy or build Helmholtz coils folks.

Dave

PS: Now OTOH if you can prove there is an all encompassing magnetic
field on the cosmic scale.... Well even if you can you probably don't
get much:

https://arxiv.org/abs/1005.1924

/quote
The observational and theoretical upper
bounds on IGMF constrain their magnitudes to be below 10−9
G (Barrow, Ferreira & Silk 1997), whereas any value above
∼10−30G is sufficient to explain the ∼μG Galactic magnetic
fields generation by the dynamo mechanism (Davis, Lilley & T ̈ornkvist
1999)
/end-quote

The above paper does not contain a glossary but I'm going with G==gauss.

As opposed to the Earth about which Google/Wikipedia says:
/quote
Its [Earth's magnetic field strength] magnitude at the Earth's surface
ranges from 25 to 65 microteslas (0.25 to 0.65 gauss). Roughly speaking
it is the field of a magnetic dipole currently tilted at an angle of
about 10 degrees with respect to Earth's rotational axis, as if there
were a bar magnet placed at that angle at the center of the Earth.
/end-quote

https://www.google.com/search?q=fiel...utf-8&oe=utf-8


But perhaps propulsion within our solar system? Weeeellll:

Again Wikipedia says:

/quote
The plasma in the interplanetary medium is also responsible for the
strength of the Sun's magnetic field at the orbit of the Earth being
over 100 times greater than originally anticipated. If space were a
vacuum, then the Sun's magnetic dipole field, about 10−4 teslas at the
surface of the Sun, would reduce with the inverse cube of the distance
to about 10−11 teslas. But satellite observations show that it is about
100 times greater at around 10−9 teslas [0.0001 gauss by my conversion,
just to keep apples to apples]. Magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) theory
predicts that the motion of a conducting fluid (e.g. the interplanetary
medium) in a magnetic field, induces electric currents which in turn
generates magnetic fields, and in this respect it behaves like a MHD dynamo.
/end-quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interp...magnetic_field



Not holding my breath.

Dave


  #18  
Old November 8th 16, 01:33 AM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

Controversial Propellentless EmDrive is said to be undergoing tests in
space on the Tiangong-2 station and US Air Force X-37B plane:

"IBTimes UK has been informed that the US Air Force is currently testing out a
version of the EmDrive electromagnetic microwave thruster on the X-37B unmanned
military space plane, while the Chinese government has made sure to include the
EmDrive on its orbital space laboratory Tiangong-2."

See:

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/11...mdrive-is.html
  #19  
Old November 10th 16, 08:59 AM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

On 11/7/2016 7:33 PM, wrote:
Controversial Propellentless EmDrive is said to be undergoing tests in
space on the Tiangong-2 station and US Air Force X-37B plane:

"IBTimes UK has been informed that the US Air Force is currently testing out a
version of the EmDrive electromagnetic microwave thruster on the X-37B unmanned
military space plane, while the Chinese government has made sure to include the
EmDrive on its orbital space laboratory Tiangong-2."

See:

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/11...mdrive-is.html


This article is a jumble of unattributed "reports" plus known unrelated
historical facts vis-a-vis the EMDrive experiments performed in China.

Nothing to see here.

Dave



  #20  
Old November 10th 16, 09:02 AM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default Emdrive might change the law of inertia (for the Earth too!)

On 11/10/2016 2:59 AM, David Spain wrote:
This article is a jumble of unattributed "reports" plus known unrelated
historical facts vis-a-vis the EMDrive experiments performed in China.

Nothing to see here.

Dave


The IBTimes UK article is a jumble of unattributed "reports" plus known
unrelated historical facts vis-a-vis the EMDrive experiments performed
in China.

Nothing to see here.

Dave

PS: The IBTimes UK website is not ad blocker friendly...

 




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