Delta 4 + SeaLaunch = Delta 5?

While doing research on competing rockets I had this crazy idea:

If you take the first stage of SeaLaunch and then use the first stage of a
Delta 4 as a second stage you have a rocket that can launch (based on my
quick calculations) over 60,000 lbs to LEO.
About the same 60,000 lbs to GTO if the Delta 4 second stage is used as a
third stage.
That would dwarf any other rocket on the maket today with no new technology.

Does any one know how hard it would be to do and if there would be any
market?

Dholmes wrote:

While doing research on competing rockets I had this crazy idea:

If you take the first stage of SeaLaunch and then use the first stage of a
Delta 4 as a second stage you have a rocket that can launch (based on my
quick calculations) over 60,000 lbs to LEO.
About the same 60,000 lbs to GTO if the Delta 4 second stage is used as a
third stage.
That would dwarf any other rocket on the maket today with no new technology.

Does any one know how hard it would be to do and if there would be any
market?

I believe it is impossible because the first stage of the Delta 4 is too large
to be launched by the first state of SeaLaunch. The Delta 4 is a larger
launch vehicle than SeaLaunch.

OK, I didn't look it up, but someone tell me if I am wrong.

Then I will say that trying to mate a full-scale LH2-LO2 large launch
vehicle with the SeaLaunch kerosene-LO2 first stage is a particularly
bad idea if you are going to take it by sea to the equator for each
launch.

Mike Walsh

"Dholmes" wrote in
:

While doing research on competing rockets I had this crazy idea:

If you take the first stage of SeaLaunch and then use the first stage
of a
Delta 4 as a second stage you have a rocket that can launch (based on
my quick calculations) over 60,000 lbs to LEO.
About the same 60,000 lbs to GTO if the Delta 4 second stage is used
as a third stage.
That would dwarf any other rocket on the maket today with no new
technology.

Two Zenit first stages in parallel with a Delta IV second stage ignited
at altitude would be a hellava launch vehicle.

Does any one know how hard it would be to do and if there would be any
market?

Sea Launch would need extensive redesign to handle a much larger vehicle
and install liquid hydrogen facilities. I don't think it's feasible.

New launch pad/facilities. Alas, no market at present.

I'd rather focus on a Delta IV with reusable liquid boosters, or a major
upgrade to a cryogenic second stage on Zenit and Delta IV second stage
as the third stage.

When there's a mission requiring heavy-lift/high energy, as in a manned
return to the Moon, we'll certainly see more serious proposals along these
lines.

--Damon

The Sea Launch first stage weighs 354.5 metric tons and its engine delivers
740 metric tons of thrust at sea level. The Delta IV first stage weighs
about 230 tons, so there's plenty of thrust to pick it up. The control would
obviously be an issue with such a large light object on top.
It would make more sense to put the Delta IV upper stage on the Sea Launch
first stage, in place of the two kerosene-burning upper stages used
currently.

Murray Anderson

"Michael Walsh" wrote in message
...


Dholmes wrote:

While doing research on competing rockets I had this crazy idea:

If you take the first stage of SeaLaunch and then use the first stage
of a
Delta 4 as a second stage you have a rocket that can launch (based on my
quick calculations) over 60,000 lbs to LEO.
About the same 60,000 lbs to GTO if the Delta 4 second stage is used
as a
third stage.
That would dwarf any other rocket on the maket today with no new
technology.

Does any one know how hard it would be to do and if there would be any
market?

I believe it is impossible because the first stage of the Delta 4 is too
large
to be launched by the first state of SeaLaunch. The Delta 4 is a larger
launch vehicle than SeaLaunch.

OK, I didn't look it up, but someone tell me if I am wrong.

Then I will say that trying to mate a full-scale LH2-LO2 large launch
vehicle with the SeaLaunch kerosene-LO2 first stage is a particularly
bad idea if you are going to take it by sea to the equator for each
launch.

Mike Walsh

"Damon Hill" wrote in message
32...
"Dholmes" wrote in
:

While doing research on competing rockets I had this crazy idea:

If you take the first stage of SeaLaunch and then use the first stage
of a
Delta 4 as a second stage you have a rocket that can launch (based on
my quick calculations) over 60,000 lbs to LEO.
About the same 60,000 lbs to GTO if the Delta 4 second stage is used
as a third stage.
That would dwarf any other rocket on the maket today with no new
technology.

Two Zenit first stages in parallel with a Delta IV second stage ignited
at altitude would be a hellava launch vehicle.

My quick estimate says about 90,000 to LEO and 75,000 to GTO.


Does any one know how hard it would be to do and if there would be any
market?

Sea Launch would need extensive redesign to handle a much larger vehicle
and install liquid hydrogen facilities. I don't think it's feasible.

New launch pad/facilities. Alas, no market at present.

I'd rather focus on a Delta IV with reusable liquid boosters, or a major
upgrade to a cryogenic second stage on Zenit and Delta IV second stage
as the third stage.

Where would reusable liquid boosters come from?
Any sort of boosters with more thrust, even solids, would be a big boost to
Delta.
A second stage with nore thrust would help for LEO as well.


When there's a mission requiring heavy-lift/high energy, as in a manned
return to the Moon, we'll certainly see more serious proposals along these
lines.

--Damon

"Dholmes" wrote in message
...
While doing research on competing rockets I had this crazy idea:

If you take the first stage of SeaLaunch and then use the first stage of
a
Delta 4 as a second stage you have a rocket that can launch (based on my
quick calculations) over 60,000 lbs to LEO.
About the same 60,000 lbs to GTO if the Delta 4 second stage is used as
a
third stage.
That would dwarf any other rocket on the maket today with no new
technology.

Does any one know how hard it would be to do and if there would be any
market?




Can the Delta IV first stage air-start ?

I cant invisage any commercial exercise that would need that LEO payload
t.b.h.

Doug

"Murray Anderson" wrote in message ...
"Michael Walsh" wrote in message
...
Dholmes wrote:

If you take the first stage of SeaLaunch and then use the first stage
of a
Delta 4 as a second stage you have a rocket that can launch (based on my
quick calculations) over 60,000 lbs to LEO.

It would make more sense to put the Delta IV upper stage on the Sea Launch
first stage, in place of the two kerosene-burning upper stages used
currently.


Agreed, and they almost seem a perfect match too.

Zenit 3SL with 5250 kg GTO Payload
Mi(kg) Mf(kg) ISP Total ^V (m/s)
S1 467450 146550 337 3833
S2 112950 32050 342 8057
S3 22450 7800 361 11799

Delta 4M with 3900 kg GTO Payload
Mi(kg) Mf(kg) ISP Total ^V (m/s)
S1 257000 57000 365 5390
S2 27000 6600 462 11771

Notional Zenit First Stage/Delta 4 Second Stage
with 5250 kg GTO Payload
Mi(kg) Mf(kg) ISP Total ^V (m/s)
S1 382850 61950 337 6018
S2 28350 7950 462 11778

The above neglects gravity losses, etc., and I've
made no attempt to consider problems that could
arise from higher g-loads during the Zenit first
stage burn, etc. Structural issues might also
limit the LEO capability of such a vehicle, but
the massive liftoff thrust of the RD-173 (1.63
million pounds of thrust) sure provides a lot of
leeway - and 12,000 kg to LEO doesn't seem out of
the question. Such a rocket, with a 1.9 thrust to
mass ratio (GTO), would pop off of its launch pad
with no need for costly strap-on boosters. The
liquid hydrogen fuel used by the upper stage would
likely require the booster to be land-based.

Of course, Lockheed Martin would argue that it has
already built a rocket almost exactly like this....

- Ed Kyle

"Dholmes" wrote in
:



Where would reusable liquid boosters come from?

The Russians are/were working on just such a design for future
use with the Angara, the replacement launch vehicle family for Proton
and Soyuz. Uses a single-chamber variant of the RD-180 engine.

Any sort of boosters with more thrust, even solids, would be a big
boost to Delta.

That's called Delta IV Heavy, using three CBCs fired in parallel.
But I was thinking of the CBC as a serious second stage, with
a couple of kerosene/LOX boosters or Titan IV-class solids. Modify
the RS-68 for altitude operation with an enlarged expansion nozzle;
a SSME with higher Isp could work here too but its expensive to
throw away.

A second stage with nore thrust would help for LEO as well.

The MB-60 or RL60 with up to 65,000 lbs/thrust are in development
to replace the current 22,000 lbs/thrust RL10; this should be
the first major upgrade to Delta IV. This will help with gravity
losses while avoiding having to use two or more RL-10s and would
make possible an enlarged upper stage, if needed.

This still wouldn't be Saturn V class, but would be reasonably
off-the-shelf.

Massively clustered Delta IV CBDs with propellant cross-feed
would be technically possible, and get into heavy-lift range with
a relatively affordable mass-produced modular design.

--Damon

"Damon Hill" wrote in message
32...
"Dholmes" wrote in
:



Where would reusable liquid boosters come from?

The Russians are/were working on just such a design for future
use with the Angara, the replacement launch vehicle family for Proton
and Soyuz. Uses a single-chamber variant of the RD-180 engine.

I checked and Boeing is working on a reusable Kerosene rocket for NASA.


Any sort of boosters with more thrust, even solids, would be a big
boost to Delta.

That's called Delta IV Heavy, using three CBCs fired in parallel.
But I was thinking of the CBC as a serious second stage, with
a couple of kerosene/LOX boosters or Titan IV-class solids. Modify
the RS-68 for altitude operation with an enlarged expansion nozzle;
a SSME with higher Isp could work here too but its expensive to
throw away.

The solids on Delta are very underpowered. The ones on Atlas have over twice
as much fuel.
Delta 2 uses up to 9 I can see no reason Delta 4 could not as well.
A pair of reusable solids about half the size of the shuttles for both Atlas
and Delta could prove interesting.
The question is would it be cheaper.
Delta's main engine makes a killer second stage for a very large rocket.
Another option would be to use slightly shortened Deltas, 3 at launch and
one as a second stage. but kerosene do seem to work best as a booster stage.

A second stage with nore thrust would help for LEO as well.

The MB-60 or RL60 with up to 65,000 lbs/thrust are in development
to replace the current 22,000 lbs/thrust RL10; this should be
the first major upgrade to Delta IV. This will help with gravity
losses while avoiding having to use two or more RL-10s and would
make possible an enlarged upper stage, if needed.

True, I was really hoping for someting a little bigger but it should be a
big help to LEO.
Beyond GTO it and a RL-10 combined could prove really powerfull.

This still wouldn't be Saturn V class, but would be reasonably
off-the-shelf.

5 RD-170s as a first stage.
3 RS-68s as a second stage.
1 RS-68 as a third stage.
Sounds close to me.


Massively clustered Delta IV CBDs with propellant cross-feed
would be technically possible, and get into heavy-lift range with
a relatively affordable mass-produced modular design.

--Damon

"Dholmes" wrote in message
...
The solids on Delta are very underpowered. The ones on Atlas have over
twice
as much fuel.
Delta 2 uses up to 9 I can see no reason Delta 4 could not as well.
A pair of reusable solids about half the size of the shuttles for both
Atlas
and Delta could prove interesting.
The question is would it be cheaper.
Delta's main engine makes a killer second stage for a very large rocket.
Another option would be to use slightly shortened Deltas, 3 at launch and
one as a second stage. but kerosene do seem to work best as a booster
stage.

Delta IV was not structurally designed to handle 9 solids, and can't be
refitted for more than 4 without major redesign. One "small" obstacle is the
pair of T-0 umbilical panels that occupy the north side of the vehicle.
Boeing could probably show you some studies that indicate the market didn't
require any more than 4 solids (I'm not saying they're correct, just that
they no doubt have them).

Massively clustered Delta IV CBDs with propellant cross-feed
would be technically possible, and get into heavy-lift range with
a relatively affordable mass-produced modular design.

But veeery high risk. Cross-feed propellants has been looked at by at least
one of the EELV manufacturers.

-Colonel K