Dedicated graphics

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 7:28:57 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:

The first of your links leads to a trailer for Godzilla on youtube.


This refers to one of the two animated graphics cobbled together to create a perspective of the apparent annual motion of the stars behind the Sun and the actual motion of the planets along the same ecliptic plane -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ

There is no reason whatsoever that students have to wait for dedicated graphics and the use of actual imaging to create enjoyable and basic astronomical perspectives within reach of every student.For instance the motion of Venus seen from our grandstand view translated from the first animated graphic -

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/S...age%20flat.jpg

Unless readers want students to drown in meaningless voodoo,I suggest a leading organization take up the challenge of expressing these new insights using 21st century tools. It doesn't take any real effort to appreciate what is going on but my talents don't extend to creating dedicated graphics hence it is up for construction by any enterprising individual or organization.

"oriel36" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 7:28:57 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:

The first of your links leads to a trailer for Godzilla on youtube.


This refers to one of the two animated graphics cobbled together to create a
perspective of the apparent annual motion of the stars behind the Sun and
the actual motion of the planets along the same ecliptic plane -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ

There is no reason whatsoever that students have to wait for dedicated
graphics and the use of actual imaging to create enjoyable and basic
astronomical perspectives within reach of every student.For instance the
motion of Venus seen from our grandstand view translated from the first
animated graphic -

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/S...age%20flat.jpg

Unless readers want students to drown in meaningless voodoo,I suggest a
leading organization take up the challenge of expressing these new insights
using 21st century tools. It doesn't take any real effort to appreciate what
is going on but my talents don't extend to creating dedicated graphics hence
it is up for construction by any enterprising individual or organization.
================================================== =========
Your talents don't extend beyond the snot dripping from your nose.
Why is it all you ignorant ****s suggest someone else does the work of
teaching you?

-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway

oriel36 wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 7:28:57 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:

The first of your links leads to a trailer for Godzilla on youtube.


This refers to one of the two animated graphics cobbled together to
create a perspective of the apparent annual motion of the stars behind
the Sun and the actual motion of the planets along the same ecliptic plane -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?vîQwYrfmvoQ

There is no reason whatsoever that students have to wait for dedicated
graphics and the use of actual imaging to create enjoyable and basic
astronomical perspectives within reach of every student.For instance the
motion of Venus seen from our grandstand view translated from the first animated graphic -

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/S...age%20flat.jpg

Unless readers want students to drown in meaningless voodoo,I suggest a
leading organization take up the challenge of expressing these new
insights using 21st century tools. It doesn't take any real effort to
appreciate what is going on but my talents don't extend to creating
dedicated graphics hence it is up for construction by any enterprising
individual or organization.

As I have already told you you you don't live in the 21st century. You
don't have to be an expert to do this. Any of the mobile phone or tablet
apps will allow you create these scenes just by entering the date, time and
interval.
If you have a PC Stellarium is free, I've already given you the names of
tablet and smartphone apps, most of which are dirt cheap.

On Thursday, February 27, 2014 6:20:06 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 7:28:57 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:



The first of your links leads to a trailer for Godzilla on youtube.





This refers to one of the two animated graphics cobbled together to

create a perspective of the apparent annual motion of the stars behind

the Sun and the actual motion of the planets along the same ecliptic plane -



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A



http://www.youtube.com/watch?vîQwYrfmvoQ



There is no reason whatsoever that students have to wait for dedicated

graphics and the use of actual imaging to create enjoyable and basic

astronomical perspectives within reach of every student.For instance the

motion of Venus seen from our grandstand view translated from the first animated graphic -



http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/S...age%20flat.jpg



Unless readers want students to drown in meaningless voodoo,I suggest a

leading organization take up the challenge of expressing these new

insights using 21st century tools. It doesn't take any real effort to

appreciate what is going on but my talents don't extend to creating

dedicated graphics hence it is up for construction by any enterprising

individual or organization.



As I have already told you you you don't live in the 21st century. You

don't have to be an expert to do this.

In some ways Collins you are completely innocent rather than ignorant and I have always allowed for that with you an Alsing.

You were never taught how to partition the inner and outer planetary retrogrades, their separate causes and different perspectives seen from a moving Earth. Not even the great Galileo had the spacial awareness to divide the causes and perspectives whereas students today can admire these motions using graphical tools that make it so easy.

"Now what is said here of Jupiter is to be understood of Saturn and Mars also. In Saturn these retrogressions are somewhat more frequent than in Jupiter, because its motion is slower than Jupiter's, so that the Earth overtakes it in a shorter time. In Mars they are rarer, its motion being faster than that of Jupiter, so that the Earth spends more time in catching up with it. Next, as to Venus and Mercury, whose circles are included within that of the Earth, stoppings and retrograde motions appear in them also, due not to any motion that really exists in them, but to the annual motion of the Earth. This is acutely demonstrated by Copernicus " Galileo

We have a grandstand view of the motion of Venus with the ability to appreciate that when we view Venus passing before the Sun to the widest point in its orbit as seen from Earth,it goes retrograde to the background stars while traveling behind the Sun from its widest point on one side of the Sun to the other,it will move in the direction of the background stars -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/S...age%20flat.jpg

It does matter that this is the first major modification to the reasoning behind retrogrades since the time of Copernicus and that 21st century tools make the difference however, what I have shown here is the possibility of the use of dedicated graphics rather than the full story itself.

If you can't appreciate what is going on with the condensed time periods in the graphics then go your own way and stick with the worthless hypothetical observer on the Sun notion that is isolated to that late 17th century mathematician. These new tools are for people who don't have to strain at all and can take a fun and spirited look at the wandering motion of the planets and their causes for the first time.

You haven't posted a graphic nor an image and may I remind you Collins in your innocence that astronomy is a visual exercise and not one filled with jargon and bluffing.

On Thursday, February 27, 2014 12:35:36 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

You were never taught how to partition the inner and outer planetary retrogrades, their separate causes and different perspectives seen from a moving Earth. Not even the great Galileo had the spacial awareness to divide the causes and perspectives whereas students today can admire these motions using graphical tools that make it so easy.

So now you are claiming to be smarter than Galileo, but you are simply wrong. There is only one definition of the word retrograde, and it does not differentiate between inner or outer planets. There are not separate causes, but there are different perspectives. What do you know about perspectives, anyhow? In the past you have stated that you cannot handle different perspectives, so why should we think that you can do so now? As we all know, retrogrades are caused by one planet orbiting the Sun at a different rate than another, causing an apparent motion against the fixed stars that is backwards to what is 'normal'. Simple definition, and it has always been fairly easy to visualize; the modern graphical tools are great, but not essential to understanding retrogrades.

We have a grandstand view of the motion of Venus with the ability to appreciate that when we view Venus passing before the Sun to the widest point in its orbit as seen from Earth,it goes retrograde to the background stars while traveling behind the Sun from its widest point on one side of the Sun to the other,it will move in the direction of the background stars -

Yep, that is correct. Isn't it wonderful?

It does matter that this is the first major modification to the reasoning behind retrogrades since the time of Copernicus...

No, there is not a major modification, it is just a manifestation of your huge ego. The reasoning behind retrogrades has been understood for a long, long time, and just because you finally figured it out does NOT mean that you have discovered something new, something that no one else has ever considered, not in a million years... NO MODIFICATION NEEDED...

... astronomy is a visual exercise and not one filled with jargon and bluffing.

Well, one facet of amateur astronomy is certainly visual (but not so much for professional astronomy), and that would be my own personal favorite, but there are many others, too... but there is certainly a lot of jargon involved, no question about that, there are a lot of words and phrases that apply only to the hobby. My feeling is that you are more of an armchair amateur astronomer and that you don't have a particularly good knowledge of the sky... and there is nothing wrong with that, there are probably millions of armchair amateur astronomers. I would be surprised if your time at the eyepiece of a telescope over your entire life would equal mine in a typical month, but of course I am just guessing. You keep posting these Youtube videos of concepts that are old-hat to most of us, but you present them as though they were the greatest things since sliced bread or tennis shoes. Some are nice, but few present anything that hasn't been known for a very long time.

Keep in mind that if you can deliver the goods, it isn't bluffing... and in your case, Gerald, most of the time you can't deliver, so it is YOU that is bluffing... you really don't have a clue as to 'how things really work'.... twilight, moon rotation, analemma, the sidereal day, and a host of other concepts, you have almost all of them wrong! Open you mind and try to learn something new. Amateur astronomy is a wonderful avocation, and you are not experiencing it to its fullest because you look at everything while wearing blinders.

On Friday, February 28, 2014 4:22:16 AM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Thursday, February 27, 2014 12:35:36 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

We have a grandstand view of the motion of Venus with the ability to appreciate that when we view Venus passing before the Sun to the widest point in its orbit as seen from Earth,it goes retrograde to the background stars while traveling behind the Sun from its widest point on one side of the Sun to the other,it will move in the direction of the background stars -



Yep, that is correct. Isn't it wonderful?



Don't forget to include the provisional graphics which serve to isolate the grandstand view we have of the inner planets as they travel in their shorter and faster orbital circuit -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/S...age%20flat.jpg

The outer planetary perspective is as though we see those motions from the perspective of being on a racing track as we overtake the slower motion planets in their outer circuit -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif

It is,of course, a major modification but one that is due to contemporary tools and a healthy use of perspectives. Like most other things if you eat or drink too much of the wrong things or do not exercise there are consequences and it is no different if people never get to acquaint themselves with changing perspectives, what belongs to relative motions between planets,what belongs to the planets themselves or varying combinations of both.

You once wrote that the orbital surface rotation was due to the changing perspective between a moving Earth and Uranus while the surface rotation is actually intrinsic to the planet itself -

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/...gs_changes.jpg


So, I delight in contemporary innovations and how they are energizing astronomy ,after all,when even you can appreciate the wonder of Venus moving in the opposite direction to the stars when traveling behind the Sun from our slower moving Earth perspective in contrast to its motion when traveling with the annual apparent motion of the stars when traveling in front of the Sun,then you know you are looking at something new and something that is here to stay always.

On Thursday, February 27, 2014 9:22:16 PM UTC-7, palsing wrote:
There are not separate causes, but there are different perspectives.

You aren't identifying his mistake correctly, since he does know the Earth's motions cause all retrogrades. Instead, what you call a different perspective, he calls a different cause - a significant enough change in the mechanism by which the Earth's motion leads to an apparent planetary retrograde to be considered a different cause.

For the outer planets, the Earth overtakes them; for the inner planets, we on the Earth see them orbiting the Sun, and thus going in retrograde when they're on the side of the Sun near us.

This isn't a correction to Galileo so much as a distinction which surely Copernicus was fully aware of - Oriel is simply choosing a slightly different emphasis to put on it, and he has the ideas of 'cause', 'mechanism', and 'perspective' not firmly distinguished.

John Savard

On Friday, February 28, 2014 4:22:16 AM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Thursday, February 27, 2014 12:35:36 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

It does matter that this is the first major modification to the reasoning behind retrogrades since the time of Copernicus...



No, there is not a major modification, it is just a manifestation of your huge ego. The reasoning behind retrogrades has been understood for a long, long time, and just because you finally figured it out does NOT mean that you have discovered something new, something that no one else has ever considered, not in a million years... NO MODIFICATION NEEDED...


Not at all,promoting 21st century tools is a huge addition in how we handle observations and convert them into causes and perspectives . The annual apparent motion of the stars behind the Sun due to the orbital motion of the Earth while the actual motion of the planets are seen to travel around the Sun in a purer style than the outer planetary motions which drop behind in view temporarily as seen from a faster moving Earth. In other words there is a symphony of motions going on in that invaluable graphic and I am eager to expand on them in a forum eager to provoke irritation -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

Pasting everything on to a celestial sphere is disastrous although it is a perfectly harmless exercise identifying celestial objects in that way but as it is taken as a framework for the Earth's motions and those of the other planets, students never get to use those change in perspective faculties which are based on long term motions such as the apparent annual motion of the stars. The mathematical mind may find comfort in a clockwork solar system but it is thoroughly blank of any character and meaning whereas the symphony of motions occurring each and every day and before every person alive goes on unloved and unnoticed,at least apart from here in this forum.

Once a person adopts a perspective never before seen they generally do not make it difficult for the originator of that insight but the trade-off is acceptable for my part as long as this necessary partitioning goes ahead.

On Friday, February 28, 2014 3:02:16 AM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

Once a person adopts a perspective never before seen they generally do not make it difficult for the originator of that insight but the trade-off is acceptable for my part as long as this necessary partitioning goes ahead.

You are giving yourself way too much credit when you claim to have discovered "a perspective never before seen", for you are centuries removed from being the originator of this perspective. In fact, you are simply just very late to the party.

You finally at least partially understand the concept of retrograde and automatically assume that this is new and exciting 'original' insight, whereas the truth of the matter is, you still don't understand your oft-quoted statement of Newton that tells us that a hypothetical man on the sun would not see any planetary retrograde at all, which of course, he wouldn't! From the Sun all planetary motion would be prograde. Until you can understand and agree that this simple statement is correct, you have not yet learned enough about retrograde at all, so keep at it...

On Friday, February 28, 2014 5:11:00 PM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Friday, February 28, 2014 3:02:16 AM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:



Once a person adopts a perspective never before seen they generally do not make it difficult for the originator of that insight but the trade-off is acceptable for my part as long as this necessary partitioning goes ahead..



You are giving yourself way too much credit when you claim to have discovered "a perspective never before seen", for you are centuries removed from being the originator of this perspective. In fact, you are simply just very late to the party.


Nearly impossible to answer this as it is quaint however, I have been consistent and careful to promote that the partitioning is easily accessible using contemporary imaging tools and unless you haven't noticed that the title of the thread calls for a dedicated treatment of inner and outer planetary retrogrades and their causes even though the cobbled together graphics I have shown are sufficient for anyone who has an interest and a love of astronomy.

This century is unique as those with the poorest convictions get to shout the loudest but this is a visual exercise that only answers to interpretation and how well it resonates among those with healthy and confident perspectives.

So now you know that as long as Venus is traveling in front of the Sun from our orbital vantage point,it is in retrograde motion against the background stars while traveling in the direction behind the Sun it is traveling in the prograde direction -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

The stars themselves have an apparent motion behind the Sun due to the orbital motion of the Earth and this is a genuine departure from the era of Copernicus and his contemporaries who had considered the apparent motion of the Sun through the constellations from more ancient times. These are lovely and intricate details that grow on people as they become familiar with 21st century tools -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ


The words of Jesus shine through all this Alsing, a spirited person who can be inspired and inspire is the target audience,not a noisebox with no images or technical and historical details to offer. These spirited people are students who have had their interest in astronomy indoctrinated out of them by a bunch of celestial sphere addicts like yourself who are intent in diminishing human achievements.

It doesn't matter anyway,the partitioning of inner and out planetary retrogrades is here to stay and just needs a proper treatment.