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Power Satellite Economics



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 6th 17, 09:45 PM posted to sci.space.policy
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Default Power Satellite Economics

It's been a long time since I came by this group, but I did today.

If you are interested in power satellites, there is a Google group for that.

Keith

PS Noticed someone accounting for velocity to orbit. It turns out that if you use an air breather like Skylon, most of the gravity drag is put on the wings.
  #6  
Old June 9th 17, 10:24 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Default Power Satellite Economics

David Spain wrote:

On 6/6/2017 4:45 PM, wrote:
It's been a long time since I came by this group, but I did today.

If you are interested in power satellites, there is a Google group for that.


Are bad and dubious.....

But if you are interested in economical power, there are plenty of
terrestrial companies that will sell you cheap & reliable solar panels.


But that won't be particularly economical power unless you subsidize
the **** out of it.


Once coupled with sufficient battery technology this will make
compelling case for those who want to co-generate with the grid as
primarily backup power. Frankly I just don't see how SPS competes with
this. I really don't. 8 cents a kilowatt hour. Whatever your initial
investment & NRE that is the figure you have to be able to compete
against and win against with SPS. And remember, you have to beat that
figure against today's largely natural gas powered grid. With
terrestrial solar and/or large scale wind as a supplement that figure
will undoubtedly go lower still. If Telsa like technology goes full
scale folks might install solar just to fuel their cars and then realize
it can stretch to other uses as well.


Terrestrial solar and wind drive UP prices unless they are heavily
subsidized.


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
  #7  
Old June 18th 17, 07:35 PM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Default Power Satellite Economics

On 6/9/2017 5:24 AM, Fred J. McCall wrote:
David Spain wrote:



Terrestrial solar and wind drive UP prices unless they are heavily
subsidized.


Oh no argument from me. And if heavily subsidized the cost is shifted
from direct payment of an electric bill to the indirect payment through
higher taxes so you could have removed the "...unless" part of that.

The only reason an electric car makes economic sense is if your electric
bill per kw/hour per mile is lower than what you'd pay directly for
gasoline, and the cost to maintain an EV over a gas powered car. If you
are willing to amortize the cost of that electricity over several years
you might be able to reduce the cost by installing solar to supplement
grid electricity for charging your electric car. You'd need something
like a Tesla Power-Wall so that presumably you can recharge during the
day when the car is away at work and then transfer from the Power-Wall
to the car at night. Not as efficient but doable. Or.... If you work for
certain companies, your employer may offer free charging stations for
daytime recharging of your EV.

I know two Chevy Volt owners and one Tesla owner who are very happy with
their choice so far. I had an article one Prius I bought used but was
unhappy with the way the computer was programmed in it that made it
unsuitable for winter driving IMO. Well that and the fact that the
electric steering unit would fail at low speed and Toyota told me they
only warranted those defective $1,300 dollar items once and mine had
been replaced already... Hence I am an ex-Prius owner. Hopefully the
newer ones are better... They must be judging by the sheer numbers of
surviving drivers....

Dave

  #8  
Old June 18th 17, 08:21 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Default Power Satellite Economics

David Spain wrote:

On 6/9/2017 5:24 AM, Fred J. McCall wrote:

Terrestrial solar and wind drive UP prices unless they are heavily
subsidized.


Oh no argument from me. And if heavily subsidized the cost is shifted
from direct payment of an electric bill to the indirect payment through
higher taxes so you could have removed the "...unless" part of that.


Just trying to keep anyone from leaping on 'consumer cost' and making
claims that don't stand up.


The only reason an electric car makes economic sense is if your electric
bill per kw/hour per mile is lower than what you'd pay directly for
gasoline, and the cost to maintain an EV over a gas powered car. If you
are willing to amortize the cost of that electricity over several years
you might be able to reduce the cost by installing solar to supplement
grid electricity for charging your electric car. You'd need something
like a Tesla Power-Wall so that presumably you can recharge during the
day when the car is away at work and then transfer from the Power-Wall
to the car at night. Not as efficient but doable. Or.... If you work for
certain companies, your employer may offer free charging stations for
daytime recharging of your EV.


You have to include impacts to make and dispose of batteries. For
short distance drivers electric cars probably make perfect sense.


I know two Chevy Volt owners and one Tesla owner who are very happy with
their choice so far. I had an article one Prius I bought used but was
unhappy with the way the computer was programmed in it that made it
unsuitable for winter driving IMO. Well that and the fact that the
electric steering unit would fail at low speed and Toyota told me they
only warranted those defective $1,300 dollar items once and mine had
been replaced already... Hence I am an ex-Prius owner. Hopefully the
newer ones are better... They must be judging by the sheer numbers of
surviving drivers....


My sister has a Prius and it seems like an OK car.

I, on the other hand, have a BMW 435i and it seems like an even more
OK car. :-)


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
  #9  
Old June 18th 17, 10:19 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
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Posts: 2,307
Default Power Satellite Economics

In article ,
says...

David Spain wrote:

On 6/9/2017 5:24 AM, Fred J. McCall wrote:

Terrestrial solar and wind drive UP prices unless they are heavily
subsidized.


Oh no argument from me. And if heavily subsidized the cost is shifted
from direct payment of an electric bill to the indirect payment through
higher taxes so you could have removed the "...unless" part of that.


Just trying to keep anyone from leaping on 'consumer cost' and making
claims that don't stand up.


If the Middle East didn't contain copious amounts of oil, the US
wouldn't have literally spent trillions of our tax dollars invading
Iraq... twice. So this "renewables aren't fair because they're
subsidized" is b.s. of the first order. If it wasn't for oil, the only
involvement we'd have in the Middle East would be to make sure Israel
can defend itself (which it can).

You can counter my argument when the US has subsidized renewable energy
to the same amount of tax dollars that we've spend on wars in the Middle
East since the first Gulf War.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #10  
Old June 18th 17, 10:47 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Alain Fournier[_3_]
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Posts: 548
Default Power Satellite Economics

On Jun/18/2017 at 3:21 PM, Fred J. McCall wrote :
David Spain wrote:

On 6/9/2017 5:24 AM, Fred J. McCall wrote:

Terrestrial solar and wind drive UP prices unless they are heavily
subsidized.


Oh no argument from me. And if heavily subsidized the cost is shifted
from direct payment of an electric bill to the indirect payment through
higher taxes so you could have removed the "...unless" part of that.


Just trying to keep anyone from leaping on 'consumer cost' and making
claims that don't stand up.


[Sorry if this is posted twice, I posted it 90 minutes ago, but I
don't see it on the news group.]


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...aper-than-wind

excerpts:
"But now unsubsidized solar is beginning to outcompete coal and natural
gas on a larger scale, and notably, new solar projects in emerging
markets are costing less to build than wind projects, according to fresh
data from Bloomberg New Energy Finance. "

"Auctions, where private companies compete for massive contracts to
provide electricity, established record after record for cheap solar
power. It started with a contract in January to produce electricity for
$64 per megawatt-hour in India; then a deal in August pegging $29.10 per
megawatt hour in Chile. That’s record-cheap electricity—roughly half the
price of competing coal power."


Alain Fournier

 




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