The end of Constellation?

On 22 Jan, 14:05, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 05:35:44 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Ian Parker made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

There is one additional remark I would like to make and it is this. If
posters are cofusing Iraq with Palestine one wonders how competant
they are in general.

People aren't doing that, you loon.

Look William Eliot has with the usual accompaniment of "loons".
Everyone seems to use very similar words of abuse. Sure there is no
training program.

- Ian Parker

Ian Parker wrote:

:On 22 Jan, 14:05, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
: On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 05:35:44 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
: Ian Parker made the phosphor on my monitor glow
: in such a way as to indicate that:
:
: There is one additional remark I would like to make and it is this. If
: posters are cofusing Iraq with Palestine one wonders how competant
: they are in general.
:
: People aren't doing that, you loon.
:
:Look William Eliot has with the usual accompaniment of "loons".
:Everyone seems to use very similar words of abuse. Sure there is no
:training program.
:

This is rather like saying that everyone uses the word 'red' for the
colour of blood, so there must be a training program and a big
conspiracy to cause that.

People call you a loon because you keep saying loony things, Ian. It's
observation, not abuse.


--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine

On 22 Jan, 16:42, Fred J. McCall wrote:

:Look William Eliot has with the usual accompaniment of "loons".
:Everyone seems to use very similar words of abuse. Sure there is no
:training program.
:

This is rather like saying that everyone uses the word 'red' for the
colour of blood, so there must be a training program and a big
conspiracy to cause that.

No it isn't. It is not an expression that should be used. It seems to
be a uniform term of abuse (possibly) dictated by shrinks. We should
not be using such expressions in our dealings with each other.

It also happens to be true that the people you call loony are usually
right.

It is the people you describe as sane that have landed us in the
almighty mess were in.

My first reaction to "cast lead" is really to let both sides stew. I
have precious little sympathy for either. Hamas are, lets face it,
extremists, but the Israelis are bone from the neck up. Just like you.


- Ian Parker

Ian Parker wrote:

:On 22 Jan, 16:42, Fred J. McCall wrote:
:
: :Look William Eliot has with the usual accompaniment of "loons".
: :Everyone seems to use very similar words of abuse. Sure there is no
: :training program.
: :
:
: This is rather like saying that everyone uses the word 'red' for the
: colour of blood, so there must be a training program and a big
: conspiracy to cause that.
:
:
:No it isn't. It is not an expression that should be used. It seems to
:be a uniform term of abuse (possibly) dictated by shrinks. We should
:not be using such expressions in our dealings with each other.
:

Yes it is. It is a description of specific behaviours. It seems to
be uniform to you because you are pretty much uniformly loony. If you
don't like being called a loon, stop being one.

:
:It also happens to be true that the people you call loony are usually
:right.
:

Ian, so far as I can recall you have NEVER been right.


--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine

On 22 Jan, 16:13, Fred J. McCall wrote:
Ian Parker wrote:

:
:To me the only rational decision is to pull the plug.
:

The sane among us wish that you would.

I could say the same of you. I am usually right in the things I say.
The truths may sometimes be unconfortable.

For example there has been no really solid argument produced about the
benefits of manned spaceflight. The ISS has cost a packet with slim
returns in the scientific sense.

Unmanned flight has revolutionized our understanding. It is usually
within budget too. I would like to know what Consellation astronauts
are going to do while on the Moon. Are they going to do anything that
could not far better and cheaper be done by an unmanned rover.
Consellation is the problem Obama and the new director will have to
face. Unmanned exploration is not a problem. Administration might be
rejigged but there is no argument for substantial changes in
direction.

Again, people talk glibly about space colonies. The technology is not
remotely there. In that sense I suppose you could say it is a non
problem although serious scientists who I feel should no better have
advocated it. It is a problem in that certain posters have shown
themselves both devoid of any sort of understanding and devoid of any
common curtesy.

SSP which would energise desalination may or may not be dooable. SSP
(desalination) is infinitely preferable to any colony in terms of the
area released for human habitation. Vast tracks of land on Earth are
arid and desalination (a far smaller area of solar collectors would be
required per person) than any colony.

These are all facts which some of us have taken on board but you and
some others do not appe\r to have. If a convincing route to SSP could
be demonstrated I am sure money would be there. The onus is on a
convincing case. SSP in fact does not involve heavy indivisible loads
and Ares for this is completely redundant. An X-20 would be relevant -
if it worked.

The politics of the Middle East are relevant in so far that they call
into question the capacity for logical thought. I would NOT want to
put Olmert or anyone else in his government in charge of SSP or
anything important for that matter. They have demonstrated admirable
how to make a mess of things.

When I was younger I used to watch Colditz. It was about a POW camp
and the prisoners had an "escape committee" that got people out,
largely through tunnels. One friend I had who was German in fact got
quite upset at the way her country was portrayed. Herr Kommandant
(Olmert) tried to strangle Gaza. He now admits he can't find all the
tunnels. If that is not moronity I don't know what is.

I don't support Hamas but I did identify with the prisoners in
Colditz. I can't help half admiring Palestinian ingenuity.


- Ian Parker

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 08:38:04 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Ian Parker made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

On 22 Jan, 14:05, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 05:35:44 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Ian Parker made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

There is one additional remark I would like to make and it is this. If
posters are cofusing Iraq with Palestine one wonders how competant
they are in general.

People aren't doing that, you loon.

Look William Eliot has with the usual accompaniment of "loons".
Everyone seems to use very similar words of abuse. Sure there is no
training program.

No one needs a "training program" to recognize looniness, or loons.

Ian Parker wrote:

:On 22 Jan, 16:13, Fred J. McCall wrote:
: Ian Parker wrote:
:
: :
: :To me the only rational decision is to pull the plug.
: :
:
: The sane among us wish that you would.
:
:
:I could say the same of you.
:

Ian, judging by past history, you COULD say just about anything. It's
one of the many reasons we call you a loon.

:
:I am usually right in the things I say.
:

So you reserve all the wrong things for posting here? So it would
appear, because I don't think I've ever seen you be 'right' about
anything.

:The truths may sometimes be unconfortable.
:
:For example there has been no really solid argument produced about the
:benefits of manned spaceflight.
:

Of course there has. You just reset and elide it all.

:
:The ISS has cost a packet with slim
:returns in the scientific sense.
:

Irrelevant, since ISS became an 'international program' for political
purposes. The very sort of program you recommend that ALL space
should be, in point of fact.

:
:Unmanned flight has revolutionized our understanding.
:

Not as much as manned flight has.

:
:It is usually within budget too.
:

Hogwash.

:
:I would like to know what Consellation astronauts
:are going to do while on the Moon. Are they going to do anything that
:could not far better and cheaper be done by an unmanned rover.
:

We've already established what the differential is between an unmanned
rover and men, Ian. It's in favour of manned by several orders of
magnitude.

:
:Consellation is the problem Obama and the new director will have to
:face. Unmanned exploration is not a problem. Administration might be
:rejigged but there is no argument for substantial changes in
:direction.
:

You're not paying attention, Ian. There's lots of call for not doing
anything but Earth science.

:
:Again, people talk glibly about space colonies. The technology is not
:remotely there. In that sense I suppose you could say it is a non
roblem although serious scientists who I feel should no better have
:advocated it. It is a problem in that certain posters have shown
:themselves both devoid of any sort of understanding and devoid of any
:common curtesy.
:

Yes, it is. We've tried to educate you, but you seem incapable of
learning.

:
:SSP which would energise desalination may or may not be dooable. SSP
desalination) is infinitely preferable to any colony in terms of the
:area released for human habitation. Vast tracks of land on Earth are
:arid and desalination (a far smaller area of solar collectors would be
:required per person) than any colony.
:

SSP has nothing to do with 'desalination'.

:
:These are all facts which some of us have taken on board but you and
:some others do not appe\r to have. If a convincing route to SSP could
:be demonstrated I am sure money would be there. The onus is on a
:convincing case. SSP in fact does not involve heavy indivisible loads
:and Ares for this is completely redundant. An X-20 would be relevant -
:if it worked.
:

Hogwash. Either you need a bunch of people and industry out in space
to fabricate components or you need medium and heavy lift vehicles to
boost it from Earth. Those are your choices. Your silly wet dreams
about millions of little self-replicating fragments are exactly that;
wet dreams.

:
:The politics of the Middle East are relevant ...
:

No, they are not. This is another reason people call you a loon, Ian.

snip irrelevant crap

:
:I don't support Hamas but I did identify with the prisoners in
:Colditz. I can't help half admiring Palestinian ingenuity.
:

What 'ingenuity'? Over the decades they've gone from producing a lot
of the technicians and professionals of the region to a group whose
highest accomplishment is blowing themselves up and self-inflicting at
every turn.


--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Ian Parker wrote:

The operation in Gaza was called "Cast Lead". I can't help remembering
that the Shuttle carries 2 tons of the stuff! The issue to be is one
of credibility quite apart from anything else.

Two tons of lead. What ever for? Balast?

On 23 Jan, 10:18, William Elliot wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Ian Parker wrote:
The operation in Gaza was called "Cast Lead". I can't help remembering
that the Shuttle carries 2 tons of the stuff! The issue to be is one
of credibility quite apart from anything else.

Two tons of lead. *What ever for? *Balast?

It is balance. Mistakes were made about the location of the center of
lift. Of couse for stable flight CG and CL must coincide.

I think though that this is symtomatic of things, The Shuttle is badly
designed.


- Ian Parker

On 22 Jan, 19:10, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 08:38:04 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Ian Parker made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

On 22 Jan, 14:05, (Rand Simberg) wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 05:35:44 -0800 (PST), in a place far, far away,
Ian Parker made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

There is one additional remark I would like to make and it is this. If
posters are cofusing Iraq with Palestine one wonders how competant
they are in general.

People aren't doing that, you loon.

Look William Eliot has with the usual accompaniment of "loons".
Everyone seems to use very similar words of abuse. Sure there is no
training program.

No one needs a "training program" to recognize looniness, or loons.

Well all I have ever said is to point out manifest failures.

1) Iraq
2) The Shuttle
3) The Israeli blocade of Gaza
4) The hype of space colonies. The fact that vast tracts of Earth
could be made habitable at vastly reduced cost.
5) The fact that far more scientific imformation has been obtained by
unmanned spacecaft than manned.

All these facts are indisputable. It takes considerable training to
dispute them. In fact the ONLY way they can be disputed is to sling
mud and denigrate people personally.


- Ian Parker