"Liars Figure, but Figures Don't Lie"

On his libelous 51-L web page, Jon Berndt fancifully claims that:

"... the SRBs can be seen flying out of the cloud
initially in a nearly parallel orientation ..."

At www.mission51l.com/aboutus.htm you'll see otherwise. Simply
extend a line through the axis of each booster, and you'll find that in
two dimensions they form nearly a 90 degree angle. (In what little
spare time my friend can find, he has begun the process of updating
my website for the approaching 18th Anniversary of Mission 51-L.)

To help complete the three-dimensional perspective needed for an
understanding of the 51-L optics in total, feel free to view the cover
prints used for my book (www.mission51l.com/apreview.htm).

You may notice that I've also decided to add a new link to the first
page referenced above (www.mission51l.com/plot.htm).

--
John Thomas Maxson, Retired Engineer (Aerospace)
Author, The Betrayal of Mission 51-L (www.mission51l.com)

On 2003-09-22, John Maxson wrote:
On his libelous 51-L web page, Jon Berndt fancifully claims that:

"... the SRBs can be seen flying out of the cloud
initially in a nearly parallel orientation ..."

At www.mission51l.com/aboutus.htm you'll see otherwise. Simply
extend a line through the axis of each booster, and you'll find that in
two dimensions they form nearly a 90 degree angle. (In what little
spare time my friend can find, he has begun the process of updating
my website for the approaching 18th Anniversary of Mission 51-L.)

Time for me to go back to the videos... OK, that was next to no help.
In the Castglance video, the boosters appear to me to emerge very
nearly parallel, while in the E-204 clip they appear to emerge at a
nearly 90 degree angle. One of them has to be an illusion, possibly
caused by the angle from which the clip was taken. Either that or my
eyes are in bad shape!

Hard to believe it's been close to 18 years. It seems like yesterday.

To help complete the three-dimensional perspective needed for an
understanding of the 51-L optics in total, feel free to view the cover
prints used for my book (www.mission51l.com/apreview.htm).

It looks good. A general question for anyone who has an answer; if
this *isn't* the ID band (in the photos mentioned above), what is it?
I find myself questioning my own eyesight, because so far, I've seen
an ID band on what's supposed to be *both* the left and right SRB.

You may notice that I've also decided to add a new link to the first
page referenced above (www.mission51l.com/plot.htm).

I'm unsure of the significance of this one. In fact, I'm unsure about
a lot of things, but I'd rather be unsure than close-minded. The last
time I believed everything I heard was 40 years ago this coming
November 22. *sigh*

Steve

"Stephen Stocker" wrote in message

On 2003-09-22, John Maxson wrote:
On his libelous 51-L web page, Jon Berndt fancifully claims that:

"... the SRBs can be seen flying out of the cloud
initially in a nearly parallel orientation ..."

At www.mission51l.com/aboutus.htm you'll see otherwise. Simply
extend a line through the axis of each booster, and you'll find that in
two dimensions they form nearly a 90 degree angle. (In what little
spare time my friend can find, he has begun the process of updating
my website for the approaching 18th Anniversary of Mission 51-L.)

John's comment given the picture he presents is true, of course. However, if
you look carefully at E204 and the ROTI footage you can see that the *noses*
of the SRBs *initially* emerge from the vapour cloud almost inline with each
other (one hiding behind the other), and the SRBs are at that time beginning
to diverge from each other. If you follow through the E204 movie frame by
frame you can better "see" how the SRBs _could_ have flown out from the
cloud on the same saide they began with, but it is not possible to see what
phantom force would have caused the SRBs to move as John Maxson hypothesizes
they did. To some degree this is understandable, as John Maxson demonstrates
a lack of experience and education in _this_ respect (flight dynamics), and
he has pretty much indicated he has no background in this respect. The
simple fact is that the "residual dynamics" of the SRBs as they emerge from
the vapour cloud, and the trajectory each takes, coupled with knowledge of
the nozzle positions before the separation occured, as well as the striking
visual evidence doesn't point at all towards an SRB crossing, but directly
away from it.

Time for me to go back to the videos... OK, that was next to no help.
In the Castglance video, the boosters appear to me to emerge very
nearly parallel,

It looks good. A general question for anyone who has an answer; if
this *isn't* the ID band (in the photos mentioned above), what is it?
I find myself questioning my own eyesight, because so far, I've seen
an ID band on what's supposed to be *both* the left and right SRB.

Unfortunately, the photos that John Maxson touts as showing an "ID band" on
the booster exiting to the north are of very poor quality in contrast and
brightness. We also do not see enough of the clip to see how far around the
forward skirt the marking is present on. In the images present of the SRB
exiting to the south (which all but John Maxson claim is the undamaged left
booster) the ID band can be seen extending (as it should) around the entire
visible circumference of the skirt. So, we have to rely on better ways to
identify the booster. What do you think of the big flare emerging from the
right booster before the disintegration? Where did that go? You can even see
the evidence of the leak on this chart hosted by John Maxson:

You may notice that I've also decided to add a new link to the first
page referenced above (www.mission51l.com/plot.htm).

See how the traces for the right SRB begin markedly diverging from the left
SRB chamber pressure traces at about 59 seconds (at the right hand edge of
the plot)? That's from the leak that you can see in the pictures.

The argument is over. See:
http://home.houston.rr.com/fancijon/conspiracy.pdf.

Jon

"Jon Berndt" wrote:

To some degree this is understandable, as John Maxson demonstrates
a lack of experience and education in _this_ respect (flight dynamics),
and
he has pretty much indicated he has no background in this respect. The
simple fact is that the "residual dynamics" of the SRBs as they emerge
from
the vapour cloud, and the trajectory each takes, coupled with knowledge of
the nozzle positions before the separation occured, as well as the
striking
visual evidence doesn't point at all towards an SRB crossing, but directly
away from it.

BTW, by "residual dynamics" I mean the dynamics that the SRBs exhibit in
response to what happened while they were in the cloud. If you trace the SRB
dynamics/motion after they leave the cloud *back* to the time they were *in*
the cloud ... you can't get "there" (what John Maxson says) from "here"
(where they are after they leave the cloud).

Jon

On 2003-09-22, Jon Berndt wrote:
"Stephen Stocker" wrote in message

On 2003-09-22, John Maxson wrote:
On his libelous 51-L web page, Jon Berndt fancifully claims that:

"... the SRBs can be seen flying out of the cloud
initially in a nearly parallel orientation ..."

At www.mission51l.com/aboutus.htm you'll see otherwise. Simply
extend a line through the axis of each booster, and you'll find that in
two dimensions they form nearly a 90 degree angle. (In what little
spare time my friend can find, he has begun the process of updating
my website for the approaching 18th Anniversary of Mission 51-L.)

John's comment given the picture he presents is true, of course. However, if
you look carefully at E204 and the ROTI footage you can see that the *noses*
of the SRBs *initially* emerge from the vapour cloud almost inline with each
other (one hiding behind the other), and the SRBs are at that time beginning
to diverge from each other. If you follow through the E204 movie frame by
frame you can better "see" how the SRBs _could_ have flown out from the
cloud on the same saide they began with, but it is not possible to see what
phantom force would have caused the SRBs to move as John Maxson hypothesizes
they did. To some degree this is understandable, as John Maxson demonstrates
a lack of experience and education in _this_ respect (flight dynamics), and
he has pretty much indicated he has no background in this respect. The
simple fact is that the "residual dynamics" of the SRBs as they emerge from
the vapour cloud, and the trajectory each takes, coupled with knowledge of
the nozzle positions before the separation occured, as well as the striking
visual evidence doesn't point at all towards an SRB crossing, but directly
away from it.

Thanks, I'd gone through these frame by frame, but at the time I was
looking for a clear view of the ID band, which I found. Although the
E204 clip still tricks my perception, the ROTI video not only tells a
different story, it gives a better view of *why* my perception is off.
Among other things, the "hidden" SRB (the right one, I think?) appears
to exit the fireball a fraction of a second later than the other
(closer) one. I guess it's possible, but I'm more inclined to think
it only appears that way because it's "behind" the closer one (from
the angle of E204).

So, at this point what I'm seeing is no crossing. So far, that makes
about 3 times I've flip-flopped on this, I think. Apologies to all who
may be going crazy reading this.

Time for me to go back to the videos... OK, that was next to no help.
In the Castglance video, the boosters appear to me to emerge very
nearly parallel,

It looks good. A general question for anyone who has an answer; if
this *isn't* the ID band (in the photos mentioned above), what is it?
I find myself questioning my own eyesight, because so far, I've seen
an ID band on what's supposed to be *both* the left and right SRB.

Unfortunately, the photos that John Maxson touts as showing an "ID band" on
the booster exiting to the north are of very poor quality in contrast and
brightness. We also do not see enough of the clip to see how far around the
forward skirt the marking is present on. In the images present of the SRB
exiting to the south (which all but John Maxson claim is the undamaged left
booster) the ID band can be seen extending (as it should) around the entire
visible circumference of the skirt. So, we have to rely on better ways to
identify the booster. What do you think of the big flare emerging from the
right booster before the disintegration? Where did that go? You can even see
the evidence of the leak on this chart hosted by John Maxson:

You may notice that I've also decided to add a new link to the first
page referenced above (www.mission51l.com/plot.htm).

See how the traces for the right SRB begin markedly diverging from the left
SRB chamber pressure traces at about 59 seconds (at the right hand edge of
the plot)? That's from the leak that you can see in the pictures.

Yes... Leaving me unsure of what the purpose of the graph is, related
to John's views.

As for the plume, that's one thing I haven't had a problem with. It's
clearly visible in everything I've seen, on the right SRB. The only
way I can discount any of this is to assume that a number of videos
were doctored, and frankly I'm left with the same thing several others
have pointed out: I can't see a motive. The motive might exist if the
official conclusion had left NASA looking good, but it doesn't come
close to that!


The argument is over. See:
http://home.houston.rr.com/fancijon/conspiracy.pdf.

I have, and as I think I've said, it seems a valid rebuttal as opposed
to a personal attack. Anyway, thanks, I think I ended up taking the
long route.

Steve

"John Maxson" wrote in news:bklm8e$956$1
@ins22.netins.net:

"Liars Figure, but Figures Don't Lie"


How do you figure?


Kirk out.

"Liars Figure, but Figures Don't Lie"


How do you figure?


Except when its figuring the cost per flight of the shuttle. Then its so
convulted no one really knows....

If the prigram costs 5 billion per year and has 4 flights how does the cost per
flight end up in the millions? Let alone the design and develoment costs before
the first flight.


I never was good at math but somehow....