Delta-Like Fan On Mars Suggests Ancient Rivers Were Persistent

Donald Savage
Headquarters, Washington November 13, 2003
(Phone: 202/358-1547)

Guy Webster
Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, Calif.
(Phone: 818/354-6278)

Ken Edgett
Malin Space Science Systems, San Diego
(Phone: 858/552-2650, Ext. 500)

RELEASE: 03-364

DELTA-LIKE FAN ON MARS SUGGESTS ANCIENT RIVERS WERE
PERSISTENT

Newly seen details in a fan-shaped apron of debris on
Mars may help settle a decades-long debate about whether the
planet had long-lasting rivers instead of just brief, intense
floods.

Pictures from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor orbiter show eroded
ancient deposits of transported sediment long since hardened
into interweaving, curved ridges of layered rock. Scientists
interpret some of the curves as traces of ancient meanders
made in a sedimentary fan as flowing water changed its course
over time.

"Meanders are key, unequivocal evidence that some valleys on
early Mars held persistent flows of water over considerable
periods of time," said Dr. Michael Malin of Malin Space
Science Systems, San Diego, which supplied and operates the
spacecraft's Mars Orbiter Camera.

"The shape of the fan and the pattern of inverted channels in
it suggest it may have been a real delta, a deposit made
where a river enters a body of water," he said. "If so, it
would be the strongest indicator yet Mars once had lakes."

Malin and Dr. Ken Edgett, also of Malin Space Science
Systems, have published pictures and analysis of the landform
in today's online edition of Science Express. The images with
captions are available online from the Mars Orbiter Camera
team, at:
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/11/13/
and from JPL at:
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA04869

The fan covers an area about 13 kilometers (8 miles) long and
11 kilometers (7 miles) wide in an unnamed southern
hemisphere crater downslope from a large network of channels
that apparently drained into it billions of years ago.

"This latest discovery by the intrepid Mars Global Surveyor
is our first definitive evidence of persistent surface
water," said Dr. Jim Garvin, NASA's Lead Scientist for Mars
Exploration, NASA Headquarters, Washington. "It reaffirms we
are on the right pathway for searching the record of Martian
landscapes and eventually rocks for the record of habitats.
Such localities may serve as key landing sites for future
missions, such as the Mars Science Laboratory in 2009,"
continued Garvin. "These astounding findings suggest that
'following the water' with Mars Global Surveyor, Mars
Odyssey, and soon with the Mars Exploration Rovers, is a
powerful approach that will ultimately allow us to understand
the history of habitats on the red planet."

No liquid water has been detected on Mars, although one of
the previous major discoveries from Mars Global Surveyor
pictures suggests some gullies have been cut in geologically
recent times by the flow of ephemeral liquid water. Another
NASA orbiter, Mars Odyssey, discovered extensive deposits of
near-surface ice at high latitudes. Mars' atmosphere is so
thin, over most of the planet, any liquid water at the
surface would rapidly evaporate or freeze, so evidence of
persistent surface water in the past is also evidence for a
more clement past climate.

Malin and Edgett estimate the volume of material in the
delta-like fan is about one-fourth the volume of what was
removed by the cutting of the upstream channels. Their
analysis draws on information from Mars Global Surveyor's
laser altimeter and from cameras on Mars Odyssey and NASA's
Viking Orbiter, as well as images from the Mars Orbiter
Camera.

"Because the debris in this fan is now cemented, it shows
that some sedimentary rocks on Mars were deposited by water,"
Edgett said. "This has been suspected, but never so clearly
demonstrated before."

The camera on Mars Global Surveyor has returned more than
155,000 pictures since the spacecraft began orbiting Mars
Sept. 12, 1997. Still, its high-resolution images cover only
about three percent of the planet's surface. Information
about Mars Global Surveyor is available on the Internet at:
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs.

JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology,
Pasadena, manages Mars Global Surveyor for NASA's Office of
Space Science, Washington. JPL's industrial partner is
Lockheed Martin Space Systems, Denver, which developed and
operates the spacecraft. Malin Space Science Systems and the
California Institute of Technology built the Mars Orbiter
Camera. Malin Space Science Systems operates the camera from
facilities in San Diego.
-end-

* * *

Lets hope jan4-5,,,will show us something eh???
Question is there 4 (four) expeditions to Mars???
I know of the two from the US and the Soyez used to
lift the European,,,,,that makes 3,,,comments??
j.


Ron Baalke wrote:
Donald Savage
Headquarters, Washington November 13, 2003
(Phone: 202/358-1547)

Guy Webster
Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, Calif.
(Phone: 818/354-6278)

Ken Edgett
Malin Space Science Systems, San Diego
(Phone: 858/552-2650, Ext. 500)

RELEASE: 03-364

DELTA-LIKE FAN ON MARS SUGGESTS ANCIENT RIVERS WERE
PERSISTENT

Newly seen details in a fan-shaped apron of debris on
Mars may help settle a decades-long debate about whether the
planet had long-lasting rivers instead of just brief, intense
floods.

Pictures from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor orbiter show eroded
ancient deposits of transported sediment long since hardened
into interweaving, curved ridges of layered rock. Scientists
interpret some of the curves as traces of ancient meanders
made in a sedimentary fan as flowing water changed its course
over time.

"Meanders are key, unequivocal evidence that some valleys on
early Mars held persistent flows of water over considerable
periods of time," said Dr. Michael Malin of Malin Space
Science Systems, San Diego, which supplied and operates the
spacecraft's Mars Orbiter Camera.

"The shape of the fan and the pattern of inverted channels in
it suggest it may have been a real delta, a deposit made
where a river enters a body of water," he said. "If so, it
would be the strongest indicator yet Mars once had lakes."

Malin and Dr. Ken Edgett, also of Malin Space Science
Systems, have published pictures and analysis of the landform
in today's online edition of Science Express. The images with
captions are available online from the Mars Orbiter Camera
team, at:
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/11/13/
and from JPL at:
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA04869

The fan covers an area about 13 kilometers (8 miles) long and
11 kilometers (7 miles) wide in an unnamed southern
hemisphere crater downslope from a large network of channels
that apparently drained into it billions of years ago.

"This latest discovery by the intrepid Mars Global Surveyor
is our first definitive evidence of persistent surface
water," said Dr. Jim Garvin, NASA's Lead Scientist for Mars
Exploration, NASA Headquarters, Washington. "It reaffirms we
are on the right pathway for searching the record of Martian
landscapes and eventually rocks for the record of habitats.
Such localities may serve as key landing sites for future
missions, such as the Mars Science Laboratory in 2009,"
continued Garvin. "These astounding findings suggest that
'following the water' with Mars Global Surveyor, Mars
Odyssey, and soon with the Mars Exploration Rovers, is a
powerful approach that will ultimately allow us to understand
the history of habitats on the red planet."

No liquid water has been detected on Mars, although one of
the previous major discoveries from Mars Global Surveyor
pictures suggests some gullies have been cut in geologically
recent times by the flow of ephemeral liquid water. Another
NASA orbiter, Mars Odyssey, discovered extensive deposits of
near-surface ice at high latitudes. Mars' atmosphere is so
thin, over most of the planet, any liquid water at the
surface would rapidly evaporate or freeze, so evidence of
persistent surface water in the past is also evidence for a
more clement past climate.

Malin and Edgett estimate the volume of material in the
delta-like fan is about one-fourth the volume of what was
removed by the cutting of the upstream channels. Their
analysis draws on information from Mars Global Surveyor's
laser altimeter and from cameras on Mars Odyssey and NASA's
Viking Orbiter, as well as images from the Mars Orbiter
Camera.

"Because the debris in this fan is now cemented, it shows
that some sedimentary rocks on Mars were deposited by water,"
Edgett said. "This has been suspected, but never so clearly
demonstrated before."

The camera on Mars Global Surveyor has returned more than
155,000 pictures since the spacecraft began orbiting Mars
Sept. 12, 1997. Still, its high-resolution images cover only
about three percent of the planet's surface. Information
about Mars Global Surveyor is available on the Internet at:
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs.

JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology,
Pasadena, manages Mars Global Surveyor for NASA's Office of
Space Science, Washington. JPL's industrial partner is
Lockheed Martin Space Systems, Denver, which developed and
operates the spacecraft. Malin Space Science Systems and the
California Institute of Technology built the Mars Orbiter
Camera. Malin Space Science Systems operates the camera from
facilities in San Diego.
-end-

* * *

all due repect to NASA but the thangs look like debris-flow lobes --
debris flows don't require water

Joe Smith wrote:

Lets hope jan4-5,,,will show us something eh???
Question is there 4 (four) expeditions to Mars???
I know of the two from the US and the Soyez used to
lift the European,,,,,that makes 3,,,comments??
j.


Ron Baalke wrote:

Donald Savage Headquarters, Washington November 13,
2003
(Phone: 202/358-1547)

Guy Webster Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, Calif.
(Phone: 818/354-6278)

Ken Edgett Malin Space Science Systems, San Diego
(Phone: 858/552-2650, Ext. 500)

RELEASE: 03-364
DELTA-LIKE FAN ON MARS SUGGESTS ANCIENT RIVERS WERE PERSISTENT

Newly seen details in a fan-shaped apron of debris on Mars may
help settle a decades-long debate about whether the planet had
long-lasting rivers instead of just brief, intense floods.

Pictures from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor orbiter show eroded ancient
deposits of transported sediment long since hardened into
interweaving, curved ridges of layered rock. Scientists interpret
some of the curves as traces of ancient meanders made in a
sedimentary fan as flowing water changed its course over time.
"Meanders are key, unequivocal evidence that some valleys on early
Mars held persistent flows of water over considerable periods of
time," said Dr. Michael Malin of Malin Space Science Systems, San
Diego, which supplied and operates the spacecraft's Mars Orbiter Camera.

"The shape of the fan and the pattern of inverted channels in it
suggest it may have been a real delta, a deposit made where a river
enters a body of water," he said. "If so, it would be the strongest
indicator yet Mars once had lakes."

Malin and Dr. Ken Edgett, also of Malin Space Science Systems, have
published pictures and analysis of the landform in today's online
edition of Science Express. The images with captions are available
online from the Mars Orbiter Camera team, at:
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2003/11/13/
and from JPL at:
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA04869

The fan covers an area about 13 kilometers (8 miles) long and 11
kilometers (7 miles) wide in an unnamed southern hemisphere crater
downslope from a large network of channels that apparently drained
into it billions of years ago.
"This latest discovery by the intrepid Mars Global Surveyor is our
first definitive evidence of persistent surface water," said Dr. Jim
Garvin, NASA's Lead Scientist for Mars Exploration, NASA
Headquarters, Washington. "It reaffirms we are on the right pathway
for searching the record of Martian landscapes and eventually rocks
for the record of habitats. Such localities may serve as key landing
sites for future missions, such as the Mars Science Laboratory in
2009," continued Garvin. "These astounding findings suggest that
'following the water' with Mars Global Surveyor, Mars Odyssey, and
soon with the Mars Exploration Rovers, is a powerful approach that
will ultimately allow us to understand the history of habitats on the
red planet."

No liquid water has been detected on Mars, although one of the
previous major discoveries from Mars Global Surveyor pictures
suggests some gullies have been cut in geologically recent times by
the flow of ephemeral liquid water. Another NASA orbiter, Mars
Odyssey, discovered extensive deposits of near-surface ice at high
latitudes. Mars' atmosphere is so thin, over most of the planet, any
liquid water at the surface would rapidly evaporate or freeze, so
evidence of persistent surface water in the past is also evidence for
a more clement past climate.
Malin and Edgett estimate the volume of material in the delta-like
fan is about one-fourth the volume of what was removed by the cutting
of the upstream channels. Their analysis draws on information from
Mars Global Surveyor's laser altimeter and from cameras on Mars
Odyssey and NASA's Viking Orbiter, as well as images from the Mars
Orbiter Camera.

"Because the debris in this fan is now cemented, it shows that some
sedimentary rocks on Mars were deposited by water," Edgett said.
"This has been suspected, but never so clearly demonstrated before."

The camera on Mars Global Surveyor has returned more than 155,000
pictures since the spacecraft began orbiting Mars Sept. 12, 1997.
Still, its high-resolution images cover only about three percent of
the planet's surface. Information about Mars Global Surveyor is
available on the Internet at:
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs.

JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology, Pasadena,
manages Mars Global Surveyor for NASA's Office of Space Science,
Washington. JPL's industrial partner is Lockheed Martin Space
Systems, Denver, which developed and operates the spacecraft. Malin
Space Science Systems and the California Institute of Technology
built the Mars Orbiter Camera. Malin Space Science Systems operates
the camera from facilities in San Diego.
-end-

* * *

"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
news:5K4xb.234734$275.876632@attbi_s53...
all due repect to NASA but the thangs look like debris-flow lobes --
debris flows don't require water

Joe Smith wrote:


How often do you see debris flow lobes make u-turn bends?

Joe Smith wrote:

Lets hope jan4-5,,,will show us something eh???
Question is there 4 (four) expeditions to Mars???
I know of the two from the US and the Soyez used to
lift the European,,,,,that makes 3,,,comments??

Two MER rovers, ESA's Mars Express orbiter + Beagle Lander, and Japan's Nozomi
(now deemed a failure, as control is apparently lost).
--
David W. Knisely
Prairie Astronomy Club: http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
Hyde Memorial Observatory: http://www.hydeobservatory.info/

**********************************************
* Attend the 11th Annual NEBRASKA STAR PARTY *
* July 18-23, 2004, Merritt Reservoir *
* http://www.NebraskaStarParty.org *
**********************************************

How often to deltas take uturn bends? Debris flows are subject to local
topography and structure, they can ricochet off barriers, deflect off
the earlier (days, hours, minutes deposits) and even go uphill aways.
At some point they "freeze" essentially instantaneously and produce
lobes. The terminations on the "deltaic lobes" seem to be too abrupt
and blunt for water-dominated deltas.
George wrote:

"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
news:5K4xb.234734$275.876632@attbi_s53...


all due repect to NASA but the thangs look like debris-flow lobes --
debris flows don't require water

Joe Smith wrote:




How often do you see debris flow lobes make u-turn bends?

"George" wrote in message "Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
news:5K4xb.234734$275.876632@attbi_s53...
all due repect to NASA but the thangs look like debris-flow lobes --
debris flows don't require water

Joe Smith wrote:


How often do you see debris flow lobes make u-turn bends?

When dealing with Mars, one must always ask
if the same geologicals would result from wind
and gravitational erosion alone, excluding water.

For example, given 100 million erosion free years,
how does the Martian surface Transform.

Before accepting the conclusion of water,
we may solve the Martian landscape, with
dust in the wind, in a reduced g-field and
in a rarified atmosphere.

Since we are only beginning to understand
Earth's climatology, lets be patient about Mars.

On a personal note, I recall a Mariner Probe
arrived just at the time of a huge dust storm.
As this event occured in the Cold War, I didn't
know if this was a cover-up or truth.

Sorry to sound like an idiot, but I never did know
if the lenses on that Mariner may have just fogged.

And you know, back in those days, the 60's
fiction had more credibility than truth.

End and thanx again
Ken S.Tucker



...

Ken S. Tucker wrote:

On a personal note, I recall a Mariner Probe
arrived just at the time of a huge dust storm.
As this event occured in the Cold War, I didn't
know if this was a cover-up or truth.

Sorry to sound like an idiot, but I never did know
if the lenses on that Mariner may have just fogged.

I presume you are referring to Mariner 9.

No, the "lenses on that Mariner [did not] just [fog]," as evidenced by
the fact that Earth-based astronomers also detected the dust storm.
Normal mapping operations by Mariner 9 commenced once the storm died down.

See http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/...g?sc=1971-051A

--


Alex R. Blackwell
University of Hawaii

"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
news:OG9xb.234975$9E1.1277445@attbi_s52...
How often to deltas take uturn bends? Debris flows are subject to local
topography and structure, they can ricochet off barriers, deflect off
the earlier (days, hours, minutes deposits) and even go uphill aways.
At some point they "freeze" essentially instantaneously and produce
lobes. The terminations on the "deltaic lobes" seem to be too abrupt
and blunt for water-dominated deltas.
George wrote:

"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
news:5K4xb.234734$275.876632@attbi_s53...


all due repect to NASA but the thangs look like debris-flow lobes --
debris flows don't require water

Joe Smith wrote:




How often do you see debris flow lobes make u-turn bends?






Meander bends are, in fact, a very common occurance on river deltas:

http://maps.unomaha.edu/Maher/geo101/tablea.html

"David Knisely" wrote in message
...
Joe Smith wrote:

Lets hope jan4-5,,,will show us something eh???
Question is there 4 (four) expeditions to Mars???
I know of the two from the US and the Soyez used to
lift the European,,,,,that makes 3,,,comments??

Two MER rovers, ESA's Mars Express orbiter + Beagle Lander, and Japan's
Nozomi
(now deemed a failure, as control is apparently lost).

Oh My Gawd! Are we going to be subjected to an announcement that:

THE BEAGLE HAS LANDED: ?

The mind boggles.


--
David W. Knisely
Prairie Astronomy Club: http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
Hyde Memorial Observatory: http://www.hydeobservatory.info/

**********************************************
* Attend the 11th Annual NEBRASKA STAR PARTY *
* July 18-23, 2004, Merritt Reservoir *
* http://www.NebraskaStarParty.org *
**********************************************