A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Astronomy and Astrophysics » Astronomy Misc
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

NASA Rover Helps Reveal Possible Secrets of Martian Life



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old December 1st 05, 01:49 PM posted to sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary,sci.geo.geology,sci.bio.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA Rover Helps Reveal Possible Secrets of Martian Life


"John Curtis" skrev i en meddelelse
oups.com...

wrote:

Scientists have been able to deduce conditions in the Meridiani Planum
region of Mars were sometimes wet, strongly acidic and oxidizing.
Those conditions probably posed stiff challenges to the origin of
Martian life.

Wet, strongly acidic and oxidizing environment results from a process
called acid mine drainage, which is strongly associated with bacteria:
http://www.mines.edu/fs_home/jhoran/ch126/microbia.htm
Acid mine drainage converts pyrite into iron (lll), sulfate,hematite,
goethite and jarosite, all found at Meridiani.


The source of pyrite is the black smoker, which is invariably
accompanied by bacteria even before the chimney is formed:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:O...ystem%22&hl=en



The article reference hydrogensulfid oozing out of the smoker, not pyrite.
Pyrite is a (biotically mediated) diagenetic product of seawater sulfates
and iron. I've never met pyrite in any rock that doesn't have a marine
progenitor, but my experience is no standard for comparison.
The article also mentions oxygen as part of the metabolic process, and I
consider that an obstacle for comparing it to martian conditions. I'm not
aware of how oxygen is released from MORB processes, and if you acknowledge
the smoker as a recirculation of initially cold oxygenated water, the oxygen
in the smoker may afterall originate from our (assumed biologically
mediated) oxygenated atmosphere. The only chemical equations on the
mine-trailing page that does not involve free oxygen reduces ferric iron to
ferrous - that the inverted result.

Carsten


  #2  
Old December 1st 05, 06:57 PM posted to sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary,sci.geo.geology,sci.bio.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA Rover Helps Reveal Possible Secrets of Martian Life

Carsten Troelsgaard wrote:
"John Curtis" skrev i en meddelelse
oups.com...

Wet, strongly acidic and oxidizing environment results from a process
called acid mine drainage, which is strongly associated with bacteria:
http://www.mines.edu/fs_home/jhoran/ch126/microbia.htm
Acid mine drainage converts pyrite into iron (lll), sulfate,hematite,
goethite and jarosite, all found at Meridiani.


The source of pyrite is the black smoker, which is invariably
accompanied by bacteria even before the chimney is formed:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:O...ystem%22&hl=en



The article reference hydrogensulfid oozing out of the smoker, not pyrite.

Hydrogen sulfide is accompanied by iron, copper and zinc. On contact
with water, they precipitate as insoluble salts: pyrite, chalcopyrite
and sphalerite.

Pyrite is a (biotically mediated) diagenetic product of seawater sulfates
and iron. I've never met pyrite in any rock that doesn't have a marine
progenitor, but my experience is no standard for comparison.
The article also mentions oxygen as part of the metabolic process, and I
consider that an obstacle for comparing it to martian conditions.

Oxygen in the atmosphere results from UV splitting of water
and hydrogen escaping into space:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:z...Earth%22&hl=en

Ancient Mars had more water and thus more oxygen.

I'm not
aware of how oxygen is released from MORB processes, and if you acknowledge
the smoker as a recirculation of initially cold oxygenated water, the oxygen
in the smoker may afterall originate from our (assumed biologically
mediated) oxygenated atmosphere. The only chemical equations on the
mine-trailing page that does not involve free oxygen reduces ferric iron to
ferrous - that the inverted result.

There is little free oxygen at the black smoker. There is no quartz,
no hematite or any other mineral that requires free oxygen for
its formation. The minerals at the black smoker are insoluble salts
of oxyanions, such as silicate, phosphate, vanadate, chromate and
sulfide salts. All of these minerals require water for their formation.
http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/vents/chemi...ges/vents2.gif
John Curtis

  #3  
Old December 1st 05, 07:12 PM posted to sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary,sci.geo.geology,sci.bio.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA Rover Helps Reveal Possible Secrets of Martian Life


"John Curtis" wrote in message
oups.com...
Carsten Troelsgaard wrote:
"John Curtis" skrev i en meddelelse
oups.com...

Wet, strongly acidic and oxidizing environment results from a process
called acid mine drainage, which is strongly associated with bacteria:
http://www.mines.edu/fs_home/jhoran/ch126/microbia.htm
Acid mine drainage converts pyrite into iron (lll), sulfate,hematite,
goethite and jarosite, all found at Meridiani.


The source of pyrite is the black smoker, which is invariably
accompanied by bacteria even before the chimney is formed:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:O...ystem%22&hl=en



The article reference hydrogensulfid oozing out of the smoker, not
pyrite.

Hydrogen sulfide is accompanied by iron, copper and zinc. On contact
with water, they precipitate as insoluble salts: pyrite, chalcopyrite
and sphalerite.

Pyrite is a (biotically mediated) diagenetic product of seawater
sulfates
and iron. I've never met pyrite in any rock that doesn't have a marine
progenitor, but my experience is no standard for comparison.
The article also mentions oxygen as part of the metabolic process, and I
consider that an obstacle for comparing it to martian conditions.

Oxygen in the atmosphere results from UV splitting of water
and hydrogen escaping into space:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:z...Earth%22&hl=en


Umm, that doesn't explain why the earth's atmosphere was largely devoid of
oxygen for nearly 3 billion years while there was plenty of water and UV
light around during that time.

Ancient Mars had more water and thus more oxygen.

I'm not
aware of how oxygen is released from MORB processes, and if you
acknowledge
the smoker as a recirculation of initially cold oxygenated water, the
oxygen
in the smoker may afterall originate from our (assumed biologically
mediated) oxygenated atmosphere. The only chemical equations on the
mine-trailing page that does not involve free oxygen reduces ferric iron
to
ferrous - that the inverted result.

There is little free oxygen at the black smoker. There is no quartz,
no hematite or any other mineral that requires free oxygen for
its formation. The minerals at the black smoker are insoluble salts
of oxyanions, such as silicate, phosphate, vanadate, chromate and
sulfide salts. All of these minerals require water for their formation.
http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/vents/chemi...ges/vents2.gif
John Curtis


Silicates require water in order to form? So you are saying that the
mantle, which is full of silicates (i.e., olivine, plagioclase, augite,
etc.), is also full of water? I think some in this group (sci.geo.geology)
might take issue with that claim, especially since olivine is very reactive
in the presence of water, usually forming serpentine in the reaction
process.

george


  #4  
Old December 1st 05, 08:23 PM posted to sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary,sci.geo.geology,sci.bio.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA Rover Helps Reveal Possible Secrets of Martian Life

In message .com, John
Curtis writes

Carsten Troelsgaard wrote:


The article also mentions oxygen as part of the metabolic process, and I
consider that an obstacle for comparing it to martian conditions.

Oxygen in the atmosphere results from UV splitting of water
and hydrogen escaping into space:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:z...shington.e du
/endsofworld/+%22The+ultraviolet+glow+of+hydrogen+escaping+from +the+Eart
h%22&hl=en


Oxygen in the atmosphere results from photosynthesis.
A search for "The origin of atmospheric oxygen on Earth" gives 508 hits,
though the first 8 are about this paper
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/5/2170
  #5  
Old December 1st 05, 09:26 PM posted to sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary,sci.geo.geology,sci.bio.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA Rover Helps Reveal Possible Secrets of Martian Life


"John Curtis" skrev i en meddelelse
oups.com...
Carsten Troelsgaard wrote:
"John Curtis" skrev i en meddelelse
oups.com...

Wet, strongly acidic and oxidizing environment results from a process
called acid mine drainage, which is strongly associated with bacteria:
http://www.mines.edu/fs_home/jhoran/ch126/microbia.htm
Acid mine drainage converts pyrite into iron (lll), sulfate,hematite,
goethite and jarosite, all found at Meridiani.


The source of pyrite is the black smoker, which is invariably
accompanied by bacteria even before the chimney is formed:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:O...ystem%22&hl=en



The article reference hydrogensulfid oozing out of the smoker, not
pyrite.

Hydrogen sulfide is accompanied by iron, copper and zinc. On contact
with water, they precipitate as insoluble salts: pyrite, chalcopyrite
and sphalerite.

Pyrite is a (biotically mediated) diagenetic product of seawater sulfates
and iron. I've never met pyrite in any rock that doesn't have a marine
progenitor, but my experience is no standard for comparison.
The article also mentions oxygen as part of the metabolic process, and I
consider that an obstacle for comparing it to martian conditions.

Oxygen in the atmosphere results from UV splitting of water
and hydrogen escaping into space:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:z...Earth%22&hl=en

Ancient Mars had more water and thus more oxygen.


Do you blame me for feeling, that something doesn't add up, when there is no
problem making O2 and H2 from H2O, - and insurmauntable problems in turning
iron into ironoxide/hematite without the need of biology?

I'm not
aware of how oxygen is released from MORB processes, and if you
acknowledge
the smoker as a recirculation of initially cold oxygenated water, the
oxygen
in the smoker may afterall originate from our (assumed biologically
mediated) oxygenated atmosphere. The only chemical equations on the
mine-trailing page that does not involve free oxygen reduces ferric iron
to
ferrous - that the inverted result.

There is little free oxygen at the black smoker. There is no quartz,
no hematite or any other mineral that requires free oxygen for
its formation. The minerals at the black smoker are insoluble salts
of oxyanions, such as silicate, phosphate, vanadate, chromate and
sulfide salts. All of these minerals require water for their formation.
http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/vents/chemi...ges/vents2.gif
John Curtis



  #6  
Old December 2nd 05, 01:59 AM posted to sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary,sci.geo.geology,sci.bio.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA Rover Helps Reveal Possible Secrets of Martian Life

George wrote:
"John Curtis" wrote in message

Oxygen in the atmosphere results from UV splitting of water
and hydrogen escaping into space:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:z...Earth%22&hl=en


Umm, that doesn't explain why the earth's atmosphere was largely devoid of
oxygen for nearly 3 billion years while there was plenty of water and UV
light around during that time.

One possibility, that it took 2.8 billion years for ultraviolet
to destroy enough water so that land could emerge above
the water line into an oxygenated atmosphere and
experience the great oxygen surge of 2.2 Ga.

There is little free oxygen at the black smoker. There is no quartz,
no hematite or any other mineral that requires free oxygen for
its formation. The minerals at the black smoker are insoluble salts
of oxyanions, such as silicate, phosphate, vanadate, chromate and
sulfide salts. All of these minerals require water for their formation.
http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/vents/chemi...ges/vents2.gif
John Curtis


Silicates require water in order to form? So you are saying that the
mantle, which is full of silicates (i.e., olivine, plagioclase, augite,
etc.), is also full of water? I think some in this group (sci.geo.geology)
might take issue with that claim, especially since olivine is very reactive
in the presence of water, usually forming serpentine in the reaction
process.

Until samples are retrieved from below the Mohorovicic discontinuity,
the composition of the mantle remains in doubt, except for hydrogen,
helium, neon and abiogenic methane. John Curtis

  #7  
Old December 2nd 05, 02:20 AM posted to sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary,sci.geo.geology,sci.bio.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA Rover Helps Reveal Possible Secrets of Martian Life


"John Curtis" wrote in message
oups.com...
George wrote:
"John Curtis" wrote in message

Oxygen in the atmosphere results from UV splitting of water
and hydrogen escaping into space:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:z...Earth%22&hl=en


Umm, that doesn't explain why the earth's atmosphere was largely devoid
of
oxygen for nearly 3 billion years while there was plenty of water and UV
light around during that time.

One possibility, that it took 2.8 billion years for ultraviolet
to destroy enough water so that land could emerge above
the water line into an oxygenated atmosphere and
experience the great oxygen surge of 2.2 Ga.


The only porblem with that is that new evidence points to emerged
continents as early as 100 million years after the earth formed. The fact
is that the data show that the earth had no substantial levels of oxygen
until about 2.2 Ga, and the reason for that is because that is when
photosynmthetic bacteria evolved and began releasing substantial amounts of
O2 into the atmosphere. Oxygen in the earth's atmosphere is primarily
biogenic, John.

George

There is little free oxygen at the black smoker. There is no quartz,
no hematite or any other mineral that requires free oxygen for
its formation. The minerals at the black smoker are insoluble salts
of oxyanions, such as silicate, phosphate, vanadate, chromate and
sulfide salts. All of these minerals require water for their
formation.
http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/vents/chemi...ges/vents2.gif
John Curtis


Silicates require water in order to form? So you are saying that the
mantle, which is full of silicates (i.e., olivine, plagioclase, augite,
etc.), is also full of water? I think some in this group
(sci.geo.geology)
might take issue with that claim, especially since olivine is very
reactive
in the presence of water, usually forming serpentine in the reaction
process.

Until samples are retrieved from below the Mohorovicic discontinuity,
the composition of the mantle remains in doubt, except for hydrogen,
helium, neon and abiogenic methane. John Curtis



  #8  
Old December 2nd 05, 02:21 AM posted to sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary,sci.geo.geology,sci.bio.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA Rover Helps Reveal Possible Secrets of Martian Life


Jonathan Silverlight wrote

Oxygen in the atmosphere results from photosynthesis.
A search for "The origin of atmospheric oxygen on Earth" gives 508 hits,
though the first 8 are about this paper
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/5/2170

One picture is worth a thousand words:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:z...Earth%22&hl=en
John Curtis

  #9  
Old December 2nd 05, 09:32 AM posted to sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary,sci.geo.geology,sci.bio.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default NASA Rover Helps Reveal Possible Secrets of Martian Life

In message .com, John
Curtis writes

Jonathan Silverlight wrote

Oxygen in the atmosphere results from photosynthesis.
A search for "The origin of atmospheric oxygen on Earth" gives 508 hits,
though the first 8 are about this paper
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/5/2170

One picture is worth a thousand words:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:z...shington.e du
/endsofworld/+%22The+ultraviolet+glow+of+hydrogen+escaping+from +the+Eart
h%22&hl=en
John Curtis

You've already posted that link. Would you care to post the figures for
the rate of loss of hydrogen?
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NASA Rover Helps Reveal Possible Secrets of Martian Life [email protected] News 0 November 29th 05 10:49 PM
Death Sentence for the Hubble? MrPepper11 Policy 437 May 4th 05 03:56 PM
Breakthrough in Cosmology Kazmer Ujvarosy SETI 8 May 26th 04 04:45 PM
Breakthrough in Cosmology Kazmer Ujvarosy Space Shuttle 3 May 22nd 04 09:07 AM
NASA Testing K9 Rover In Granite Quarry For Future Missions Ron Baalke Technology 0 October 31st 03 05:45 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.